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enneract
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 Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | They all should be allowed to preach thier beliefs and express their religion and you have your rights to reject them especially if they are directing the comments directly to you, but you also allowed to preach your non-beliefs and express your knowledge and they have thier rights to reject them especially if you are directing them to a single point. Its really just a constant battle |
Er, I many people in this thread are making a fundamental mis-step here, and the above poster really exemplifies this.
No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant.
Holding fantasy on even the same playing field as *reality* is the path to madness. By definition, a non-religious viewpoint on any given topic is innately superior to a religious one, because it deals with things that actually exist. |
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JBCuzISaidSo
Jaded Humanist
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Well you know the old, overused saying "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Somebody talking of their beliefs in a public place has every right to do so. And you have every right to publicly disagree with their views of it, if you're doing it with a respect for their personal opinions of course. That free-speech "trump card" folks use to verbally attack the person and not the subject is total shit.
Equally as bad is assuming higher intelligence based on a belief system. To me it's just as easy to assume the higher ground and treat the person respectfully even if their belief is one of a crazy person. I react to being chided for non-belief with the simple, "That is all true according to you and in your very strong opinion. It does not make it so to me." Not your problem if they refuse to accept that as a viable argument.
| Quote: | | No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant. |
They, the "other", sees their view as the only valid one. Not true and seeded in silly, but to them it's more valid than non-belief. Tossing off a person's entire opinion based on their belief (or non-belief) system is ridiculous and that goes both ways.
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ImRunninUDown!33
...Is A Cult
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | They all should be allowed to preach thier beliefs and express their religion and you have your rights to reject them especially if they are directing the comments directly to you, but you also allowed to preach your non-beliefs and express your knowledge and they have thier rights to reject them especially if you are directing them to a single point. Its really just a constant battle |
Er, I many people in this thread are making a fundamental mis-step here, and the above poster really exemplifies this.
No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant.
Holding fantasy on even the same playing field as *reality* is the path to madness. By definition, a non-religious viewpoint on any given topic is innately superior to a religious one, because it deals with things that actually exist. |
So your saying because no one has proof of god and it is considered fantasy, so therefore all Atheists have a higher authority in arguments because we live and argue in reality?
if so then AGREED!
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | They all should be allowed to preach thier beliefs and express their religion and you have your rights to reject them especially if they are directing the comments directly to you, but you also allowed to preach your non-beliefs and express your knowledge and they have thier rights to reject them especially if you are directing them to a single point. Its really just a constant battle |
Er, I many people in this thread are making a fundamental mis-step here, and the above poster really exemplifies this.
No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant.
Holding fantasy on even the same playing field as *reality* is the path to madness. By definition, a non-religious viewpoint on any given topic is innately superior to a religious one, because it deals with things that actually exist. |
So your saying because no one has proof of god and it is considered fantasy, so therefore all Atheists have a higher authority in arguments because we live and argue in reality?
if so then AGREED! |
I'm going to argue semantics with you - religion is not fantasy because 'no one has proof of god, and is thus considered fantasy...', religion is fantasy because it is, upon any reason-based examination, merely a vague contrivance of myths and stories, not only with no basis in reality, but no place in reality where a basis for it could possibly fit! Furthermore, it isn't about 'atheists' having a higher authority, merely a predisposition towards rational thinking, not having the mental handicaps imposed by religious indoctrination.
| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | Well you know the old, overused saying "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Somebody talking of their beliefs in a public place has every right to do so. And you have every right to publicly disagree with their views of it, if you're doing it with a respect for their personal opinions of course. That free-speech "trump card" folks use to verbally attack the person and not the subject is total shit.
Equally as bad is assuming higher intelligence based on a belief system. To me it's just as easy to assume the higher ground and treat the person respectfully even if their belief is one of a crazy person. I react to being chided for non-belief with the simple, "That is all true according to you and in your very strong opinion. It does not make it so to me." Not your problem if they refuse to accept that as a viable argument.
| Quote: | | No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant. |
They, the "other", sees their view as the only valid one. Not true and seeded in silly, but to them it's more valid than non-belief. Tossing off a person's entire opinion based on their belief (or non-belief) system is ridiculous and that goes both ways. |
I have to disagree with you on almost every point there.
I think that religion, and other fantasy-based mindsets and dogmas are given *far* too much respect, where in fact they deserve none. All decisions, from those of micro-scale, interpersonal nature, to those of a macro-scale, international nature, need to be made based on facts - not make-believe. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 11:01 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | Well you know the old, overused saying "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Somebody talking of their beliefs in a public place has every right to do so. And you have every right to publicly disagree with their views of it, if you're doing it with a respect for their personal opinions of course. That free-speech "trump card" folks use to verbally attack the person and not the subject is total shit.
Equally as bad is assuming higher intelligence based on a belief system. To me it's just as easy to assume the higher ground and treat the person respectfully even if their belief is one of a crazy person. I react to being chided for non-belief with the simple, "That is all true according to you and in your very strong opinion. It does not make it so to me." Not your problem if they refuse to accept that as a viable argument.
| Quote: | | No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant. |
They, the "other", sees their view as the only valid one. Not true and seeded in silly, but to them it's more valid than non-belief. Tossing off a person's entire opinion based on their belief (or non-belief) system is ridiculous and that goes both ways. |
Hence the reason I hold you in high esteem, I feel this is a true approach to lifes dealing with inter human relations. If everybody approach a conversation or debate with another human with your frame of mind our world would be such a better place to live, and yes I mean it both ways 
I mean not that a Theist respecting you here will get you any votes lol
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | They all should be allowed to preach thier beliefs and express their religion and you have your rights to reject them especially if they are directing the comments directly to you, but you also allowed to preach your non-beliefs and express your knowledge and they have thier rights to reject them especially if you are directing them to a single point. Its really just a constant battle |
Er, I many people in this thread are making a fundamental mis-step here, and the above poster really exemplifies this.
No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant.
Holding fantasy on even the same playing field as *reality* is the path to madness. By definition, a non-religious viewpoint on any given topic is innately superior to a religious one, because it deals with things that actually exist. |
So your saying because no one has proof of god and it is considered fantasy, so therefore all Atheists have a higher authority in arguments because we live and argue in reality?
if so then AGREED! |
I'm going to argue semantics with you - religion is not fantasy because 'no one has proof of god, and is thus considered fantasy...', religion is fantasy because it is, upon any reason-based examination, merely a vague contrivance of myths and stories, not only with no basis in reality, but no place in reality where a basis for it could possibly fit! Furthermore, it isn't about 'atheists' having a higher authority, merely a predisposition towards rational thinking, not having the mental handicaps imposed by religious indoctrination.
| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | Well you know the old, overused saying "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Somebody talking of their beliefs in a public place has every right to do so. And you have every right to publicly disagree with their views of it, if you're doing it with a respect for their personal opinions of course. That free-speech "trump card" folks use to verbally attack the person and not the subject is total shit.
Equally as bad is assuming higher intelligence based on a belief system. To me it's just as easy to assume the higher ground and treat the person respectfully even if their belief is one of a crazy person. I react to being chided for non-belief with the simple, "That is all true according to you and in your very strong opinion. It does not make it so to me." Not your problem if they refuse to accept that as a viable argument.
| Quote: | | No matter how hard someone believes something, does not necessarily make that belief valid, valuable, or worthy of consideration (ie, all beliefs are not created equal...). As a matter of course, anything that cannot be quantified as an observable or falsifiable fact, which means any belief, is utterly irrelevant. |
They, the "other", sees their view as the only valid one. Not true and seeded in silly, but to them it's more valid than non-belief. Tossing off a person's entire opinion based on their belief (or non-belief) system is ridiculous and that goes both ways. |
I have to disagree with you on almost every point there.
I think that religion, and other fantasy-based mindsets and dogmas are given *far* too much respect, where in fact they deserve none. All decisions, from those of micro-scale, interpersonal nature, to those of a macro-scale, international nature, need to be made based on facts - not make-believe. |
Hmm....I wonder if you take this no respect at all for Theist all the way in your life. Let me ask you something if you care to answer, what do you do as far as a carreer is concern?
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | ... |
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| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | ...
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Hmm....I wonder if you take this no respect at all for Theist all the way in your life. Let me ask you something if you care to answer, what do you do as far as a carreer is concern? |
my career is a non-issue, presently. I am a student.
As for taking it all the way - yes... I have no more respect for a theistic viewpoint than I do the viewpoint of someone who believes the moon is made of green cheese and aliens run the CIA - they are both delusions. Respect is something that is earned, not given out like candy at halloween, and religion acts, by its very anti-fact nature, to not only not earn respect, but actively repel the accumulation of the same. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 11:01 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | ... |
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| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | ...
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Hmm....I wonder if you take this no respect at all for Theist all the way in your life. Let me ask you something if you care to answer, what do you do as far as a carreer is concern? |
my career is a non-issue, presently. I am a student.
As for taking it all the way - yes... I have no more respect for a theistic viewpoint than I do the viewpoint of someone who believes the moon is made of green cheese and aliens run the CIA - they are both delusions. Respect is something that is earned, not given out like candy at halloween, and religion acts, by its very anti-fact nature, to not only not earn respect, but actively repel the accumulation of the same. |
all the way..cool, I can respect that, I would imagine you would never work for a theist...correct?
or are you like the people who say they hate the goverment involment yet receive every posible aid for studying from the govt?
not assuming mind you I am asking you...
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | ... |
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| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | ...
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Hmm....I wonder if you take this no respect at all for Theist all the way in your life. Let me ask you something if you care to answer, what do you do as far as a carreer is concern? |
my career is a non-issue, presently. I am a student.
As for taking it all the way - yes... I have no more respect for a theistic viewpoint than I do the viewpoint of someone who believes the moon is made of green cheese and aliens run the CIA - they are both delusions. Respect is something that is earned, not given out like candy at halloween, and religion acts, by its very anti-fact nature, to not only not earn respect, but actively repel the accumulation of the same. |
all the way..cool, I can respect that, I would imagine you would never work for a theist...correct?
or are you like the people who say they hate the goverment involment yet receive every posible aid for studying from the govt?
not assuming mind you I am asking you... |
The religious orientation of my employer matters exactly as much as their sexual orientation - as long as they aren't hitting on me (discriminating based on religious motivation, making decisions which affect my livelihood based on fantasy), it does not matter. You are confusing personal respect with my respect for someone's ideological viewpoint.
I think my immediate supervisor at my McJob is an ultra-devout baptist or some shit, but he doesn't hold my antitheism against me, and I don't hold his delusion against him - as a person, though it would become issuous if he were to attempt to preach at me on the job. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | ImRunninUDown!33 wrote: | | ... |
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| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | ...
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Hmm....I wonder if you take this no respect at all for Theist all the way in your life. Let me ask you something if you care to answer, what do you do as far as a carreer is concern? |
my career is a non-issue, presently. I am a student.
As for taking it all the way - yes... I have no more respect for a theistic viewpoint than I do the viewpoint of someone who believes the moon is made of green cheese and aliens run the CIA - they are both delusions. Respect is something that is earned, not given out like candy at halloween, and religion acts, by its very anti-fact nature, to not only not earn respect, but actively repel the accumulation of the same. |
all the way..cool, I can respect that, I would imagine you would never work for a theist...correct?
or are you like the people who say they hate the goverment involment yet receive every posible aid for studying from the govt?
not assuming mind you I am asking you... |
The religious orientation of my employer matters exactly as much as their sexual orientation - as long as they aren't hitting on me (discriminating based on religious motivation, making decisions which affect my livelihood based on fantasy), it does not matter. You are confusing personal respect with my respect for someone's ideological viewpoint.
I think my immediate supervisor at my McJob is an ultra-devout baptist or some shit, but he doesn't hold my antitheism against me, and I don't hold his delusion against him - as a person, though it would become issuous if he were to attempt to preach at me on the job. |
ok, I totally misinterpreted you then, and I apologize and stand corrected, I dont agree on not respecting my beliefs, but to each his own, I still respect an Atheistic mindset
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: |
ok, I totally misinterpreted you then, and I apologize and stand corrected, I dont agree on not respecting my beliefs, but to each his own, I still respect an Atheistic mindset |
At the risk of sounding overly smug - its because on some level you know your beliefs are ridiculous, but they are so ingrained that you cannot yet reason your way out of them.
I face similar problems (though not with religious beliefs, I was never indoctrinated\brainwashed effectively in those matters) with beliefs I hold with are directly contradictory to most logic I apply to them - yet they persist, and often it is an effort to even want to expunge them, even though they are counter-productive in most circles, and on a rational level I find them vile. It is a matter of persistent conscious decision to apply reason to the most fundamental levels of our own mentalities - humans are, after all, very irrational animals. But I am confident I will get there eventually, perhaps so will you. |
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xena
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
ok, I totally misinterpreted you then, and I apologize and stand corrected, I dont agree on not respecting my beliefs, but to each his own, I still respect an Atheistic mindset |
At the risk of sounding overly smug - its because on some level you know your beliefs are ridiculous, but they are so ingrained that you cannot yet reason your way out of them.
I face similar problems (thought not with religious beliefs) with beliefs I hold with are directly contradictory to most logic I apply to them - yet they persist, and often it is an effort to even want to expunge them, even though they are counter-productive in most circles, and on a rational level I find them vile. It is a matter of persistent conscious decision to apply reason to the most fundamental levels of our own mentalities - humans are, after all, very irrational animals. But I am confident I will get there eventually, perhaps so will you. |
Can I nick that statement from you? Copy, paste, done, thanks  |
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| hokay? |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
ok, I totally misinterpreted you then, and I apologize and stand corrected, I dont agree on not respecting my beliefs, but to each his own, I still respect an Atheistic mindset |
At the risk of sounding overly smug - its because on some level you know your beliefs are ridiculous, but they are so ingrained that you cannot yet reason your way out of them.
I face similar problems (though not with religious beliefs, I was never indoctrinated\brainwashed effectively in those matters) with beliefs I hold with are directly contradictory to most logic I apply to them - yet they persist, and often it is an effort to even want to expunge them, even though they are counter-productive in most circles, and on a rational level I find them vile. It is a matter of persistent conscious decision to apply reason to the most fundamental levels of our own mentalities - humans are, after all, very irrational animals. But I am confident I will get there eventually, perhaps so will you. |
I agree with you, its a smug statement to say the least in this field you have no idea what your taking about since you have no knowledge of me on the subject, so not only smug but slightly ignorant and youthfull.
well it always goes both ways my friend, never say never as you will learn soon enough in all fields of life.
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enneract
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | enneract wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
ok, I totally misinterpreted you then, and I apologize and stand corrected, I dont agree on not respecting my beliefs, but to each his own, I still respect an Atheistic mindset |
At the risk of sounding overly smug - its because on some level you know your beliefs are ridiculous, but they are so ingrained that you cannot yet reason your way out of them.
I face similar problems (though not with religious beliefs, I was never indoctrinated\brainwashed effectively in those matters) with beliefs I hold with are directly contradictory to most logic I apply to them - yet they persist, and often it is an effort to even want to expunge them, even though they are counter-productive in most circles, and on a rational level I find them vile. It is a matter of persistent conscious decision to apply reason to the most fundamental levels of our own mentalities - humans are, after all, very irrational animals. But I am confident I will get there eventually, perhaps so will you. |
I agree with you, its a smug statement to say the least in this field you have no idea what your taking about since you have no knowledge of me on the subject, so not only smug but slightly ignorant and youthfull.
well it always goes both ways my friend, never say never as you will learn soon enough in all fields of life. |
oh, I've never claimed to know enough, nor have I ever claimed that it is ever possible to know 'enough' (as knowing more always > knowing less, and there is no way to know everything).
I don't know you, no, but I can extrapolate several things about you, from a) the situation you willingly place yourself in (debating with atheists), b) the questions you ask, and c) the conclusions you jump to. The fact that you are willing to engage in debate that at least appears civil, and the fact that you ask questions instead of jumping to accusaions implies you possess at least basic reasoning skills. Since the existence of god can be logically removed from the realm of reasonable probability by a 4 year old who isn't constantly told by all the adults around them that god exists, you obviously have, at some level applied those reasoning skills to your faith, and found it lacking, even if you so desperately want to believe that you ignore it.
This is not an accusation, nor a judgement, merely an evaluation based on the limited information available to me. As to your evaluation of me, as extremely smug and youthful - this is accurate, and I willingly agree to that evaluation (I'd go so far as to say arrogant). Unfortunately, I have a tendancy to be right more than I am wrong, though I am not infalliable, and recognize that it is not outside the realm of plausibility, if not well inside the realm of probability, that I have evaluated you incorrectly... though I do not think so. |
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