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atheod
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: morality |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power. |
Ah, so whoever has the might makes the right? So has it ever been, but some of us would like to change that paradigm. |
It's how the world works. You won't be able to change it.
| kmisho wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering? |
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
| Moloth wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering? |
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing. |
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative. |
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol. |
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power. |
Better than this, though still not perfect, is the morality espoused by the majority. Don't say they're the same thing. Rule by minority REQUIRES power. Rule by the majority does not necessarily require power and has the further advantage of being defensible by statistics. I am equatic right with normal. Again, not a perfect solution but better than an appeal to sheer force. |
Majority rule matters because there is an inherent power in numbers. A weak majority's morals aren't going to matter much in the face of a powerful minority.
You can talk about how perfect your personal morality is till you're blue in the face, but it won't matter if your moral opponent has a Kalashnikov and you don't. |
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Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering? |
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
| Moloth wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering? |
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing. |
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative. |
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol. |
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power. |
only a slave or the intellectually lazy or dishonest would think so. |
We're all slaves to reality. |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
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emo samurai
Black Messiah
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
I think you understand what we're saying. I really do. If you didn't, then you would be too fucking stupid to pick up a keyboard and type.
What Moloth was saying was that if you're going to take this fatalistic, "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it. Kalashnikovs are everything" kind of attitude, then you don't really have a right to claim that there's a supernatural entity that controls everything.
atheod, you are a fucking tool. Anyone who believes that might makes right doesn't believe in free will and the inherent rightness of it. If you think something as... as prosaic as might could ever decide something as fundamental as right and wrong, then you are a fucking tool.
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Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.
I didn't outsmart you; you outdumbed me.
It is a human right to profit from the stupidity and arrogance of others.
Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere is happy.
--Henry Mencken |
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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| emo samurai wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
I think you understand what we're saying. I really do. If you didn't, then you would be too fucking stupid to pick up a keyboard and type.
What Moloth was saying was that if you're going to take this fatalistic, "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it. Kalashnikovs are everything" kind of attitude, then you don't really have a right to claim that there's a supernatural entity that controls everything.
atheod, you are a fucking tool. Anyone who believes that might makes right doesn't believe in free will and the inherent rightness of it. If you think something as... as prosaic as might could ever decide something as fundamental as right and wrong, then you are a fucking tool. |
Quoted for Truth...
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emo samurai
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Yay! My paper was cited!
_________________
Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.
I didn't outsmart you; you outdumbed me.
It is a human right to profit from the stupidity and arrogance of others.
Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere is happy.
--Henry Mencken |
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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 3154
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Your welcome. 
_________________
Cheap, Sweat Shop-Free T-Shirts, ranging from Political to Ecological topics.
http://www.bant-shirts.com/index.htm
I support the Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional (Zapatista Army of National Liberation), EZLN - "ˇYa Basta!" ("Enough is Enough!").
"There are two kinds of people in this world that go around beardless — boys and women — and I am neither one." -Greek saying |
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atheod
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| emo samurai wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
I think you understand what we're saying. I really do. If you didn't, then you would be too fucking stupid to pick up a keyboard and type.
What Moloth was saying was that if you're going to take this fatalistic, "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it. Kalashnikovs are everything" kind of attitude, then you don't really have a right to claim that there's a supernatural entity that controls everything. |
The fact that: "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it" has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of supernatural entities. A red herring if I ever saw one.
I'm not the one being fatalistic, reality is fatalistic. You can try and change reality, but you'll eventually fail like a schizophrenic trying to fly wearing a superman cape. The weak live by the grace of the powerful, this isn't just an "attitude", it's a fact. You can't end suffering with weakness, in the end it's strength that counts.
| Quote: |
atheod, you are a fucking tool. Anyone who believes that might makes right doesn't believe in free will and the inherent rightness of it. If you think something as... as prosaic as might could ever decide something as fundamental as right and wrong, then you are a fucking tool. |
I'm just stating a fact, it's reality that's a tool. Might does decide right and wrong, there is no "could" about it. A weakling "could" decide what's right and wrong, but it won't matter much. Try pulling that Mahat Magandi rigmarole in a nazi gas chamber. See how much your decisions matter there. Hopefully your corpse will have some power. If not, you no longer matter. Mahat Magandi's jive only worked because the powers at be actually gave a fuck.
Last edited by atheod on Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Unbeliever
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | | We can see through history that rape was never considered wrong as long as it was done against a person of another tribe or culture. The evolution of the "laws" against rape are an interesting study in itself. |
It's no wonder we've inherited such aggressive tendencies from our forebears, since rape was a common practice during war, so the most aggressive genes would've been propagated preferentially.
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moloth |
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emo samurai
Black Messiah
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | emo samurai wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
I think you understand what we're saying. I really do. If you didn't, then you would be too fucking stupid to pick up a keyboard and type.
What Moloth was saying was that if you're going to take this fatalistic, "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it. Kalashnikovs are everything" kind of attitude, then you don't really have a right to claim that there's a supernatural entity that controls everything. |
The fact that: "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it" has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of supernatural entities. A red herring if I ever saw one.
I'm not the one being fatalistic, reality is fatalistic. You can try and change reality, but you'll eventually fail like a schizophrenic trying to fly wearing a superman cape. The weak live by the grace of the powerful, this isn't just an "attitude", it's a fact. You can't end suffering with weakness, in the end it's strength that counts.
| Quote: |
atheod, you are a fucking tool. Anyone who believes that might makes right doesn't believe in free will and the inherent rightness of it. If you think something as... as prosaic as might could ever decide something as fundamental as right and wrong, then you are a fucking tool. |
I'm just stating a fact, it's reality that's a tool. Might does decide right and wrong, there is no "could" about it. A weakling "could" decide what's right and wrong, but it won't matter much. Try pulling that Mahat Magandi rigmarole in a nazi gas chamber. See how much your decisions matter there. Hopefully your corpse will have some power. If not, you no longer matter. Mahat Magandi's jive only worked because the powers at be actually gave a fuck. |
Okay. Dude 1 thinks 2+2=4. Dude 2 thinks 2+2=Fish. Dude 2 has a sword, and stabs dude 1 for disagreeing with him. Is Dude 2 right?
_________________
Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.
I didn't outsmart you; you outdumbed me.
It is a human right to profit from the stupidity and arrogance of others.
Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere is happy.
--Henry Mencken |
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aitm
using the thinker thingy
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: Melbourne, Fl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | aitm wrote: | | We can see through history that rape was never considered wrong as long as it was done against a person of another tribe or culture. The evolution of the "laws" against rape are an interesting study in itself. |
It's no wonder we've inherited such aggressive tendencies from our forebears, since rape was a common practice during war, so the most aggressive genes would've been propagated preferentially. |
I am sure most of you realize that kidnap and rape of women is not only customary for some tribes of the past, but still practiced today among some of the Alaskan natives, though you don't hear about it. According to Katchedorian and Lund or was it Beach...hmmmm anyway, american indians used to consider rape as fulfilling a womans secret desire.
ah... if only for the good ole days.....................
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psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: | | aitm wrote: | | We can see through history that rape was never considered wrong as long as it was done against a person of another tribe or culture. The evolution of the "laws" against rape are an interesting study in itself. |
It's no wonder we've inherited such aggressive tendencies from our forebears, since rape was a common practice during war, so the most aggressive genes would've been propagated preferentially. |
I am sure most of you realize that kidnap and rape of women is not only customary for some tribes of the past, but still practiced today among some of the Alaskan natives, though you don't hear about it. According to Katchedorian and Lund or was it Beach...hmmmm anyway, american indians used to consider rape as fulfilling a womans secret desire.
ah... if only for the good ole days..................... |
considering the women *I* know, that's not exactly inaccurate.
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www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Tormentor
Royal Citizen
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | | Quote: | | i have seen more Good come from ignoring or abolishing rules |
What kind of positive social change do you think might arise if we abolished the "arbitrary" rules prohibiting murder or rape? |
What kind of positive social change do you think might arise if we abolished the "arbitrary" rules prohibiting gay marriage, preventing women from being able to vote or legalizing slavery?
I'm not calling for anarchy... I'm calling for the fewest rules necessary. Some rules are good rules. most are not. |
If there was anarchy there would be nothing binding those slaves. Those women would have nothing to vote for, and gay people could do whatever the fuck they wanted to and would stop pretending like being married is a legal institution instead of a religious one. |
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Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Tormentor wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Alexis wrote: | | Quote: | | i have seen more Good come from ignoring or abolishing rules |
What kind of positive social change do you think might arise if we abolished the "arbitrary" rules prohibiting murder or rape? |
What kind of positive social change do you think might arise if we abolished the "arbitrary" rules prohibiting gay marriage, preventing women from being able to vote or legalizing slavery?
I'm not calling for anarchy... I'm calling for the fewest rules necessary. Some rules are good rules. most are not. |
If there was anarchy there would be nothing binding those slaves. Those women would have nothing to vote for, and gay people could do whatever the fuck they wanted to and would stop pretending like being married is a legal institution instead of a religious one. |
if there were anarchy, nothing would keep the strong from preying upon the weak. see central Africa, Darfur, Mogidishu, et al. and its myriad warlords.
Rules are only there because of human weakness. most people do not need to have a law in place to keep them from enslaving people. the very few people of that nature, nowadays, makes such a rule unfortunately necessary.
no rules, and the complete lack of a NEED for rules, is the goal. each person acting with another in ways that do not cause harm. However, humans NEED some rules, some societal framework, for civilization to exist. maybe, one day, we won't. but right now, we DO.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| emo samurai wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | emo samurai wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Moloth wrote: |
reality does not include magical, divine, deific or supernatural entities. that is mere delusion. |
There is nothing magical, divine, deific or supernatural about a Kalashnikov. |
I think you understand what we're saying. I really do. If you didn't, then you would be too fucking stupid to pick up a keyboard and type.
What Moloth was saying was that if you're going to take this fatalistic, "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it. Kalashnikovs are everything" kind of attitude, then you don't really have a right to claim that there's a supernatural entity that controls everything. |
The fact that: "blah might makes right and there's nothing we can do about it" has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of supernatural entities. A red herring if I ever saw one.
I'm not the one being fatalistic, reality is fatalistic. You can try and change reality, but you'll eventually fail like a schizophrenic trying to fly wearing a superman cape. The weak live by the grace of the powerful, this isn't just an "attitude", it's a fact. You can't end suffering with weakness, in the end it's strength that counts.
| Quote: |
atheod, you are a fucking tool. Anyone who believes that might makes right doesn't believe in free will and the inherent rightness of it. If you think something as... as prosaic as might could ever decide something as fundamental as right and wrong, then you are a fucking tool. |
I'm just stating a fact, it's reality that's a tool. Might does decide right and wrong, there is no "could" about it. A weakling "could" decide what's right and wrong, but it won't matter much. Try pulling that Mahat Magandi rigmarole in a nazi gas chamber. See how much your decisions matter there. Hopefully your corpse will have some power. If not, you no longer matter. Mahat Magandi's jive only worked because the powers at be actually gave a fuck. |
Okay. Dude 1 thinks 2+2=4. Dude 2 thinks 2+2=Fish. Dude 2 has a sword, and stabs dude 1 for disagreeing with him. Is Dude 2 right? |
To us, no. To dude 2, yes, assuming dude 2 kills dude 1, dude 2 doesn't change his mind and we don't show up with a math lesson. You could say, but to us he's wrong. Correct, but we won't matter if we're not there or if he kills us too. It's not like our ghosts will be watching him from beyond the grave thinking, this dude is so wrong and where the fucks my car. |
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