Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 280 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Maryland
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:21 am Post subject:
Obviously rules that oppress people and deny basic human rights are wrong. _________________ Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance. -JPS
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23071 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:
Alexis wrote:
Obviously rules that oppress people and deny basic human rights are wrong.
oh, well.. if things are so obvious why are we having to talk about them?
I just happen to err on the side of the individual when there is a question of rules, rather the side of the society, in most cases. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Posts: 2259 Local time: 9:44 PM
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23071 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject:
atheod wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Posts: 2259 Local time: 9:44 PM
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject:
Moloth wrote:
atheod wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol.
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power.
Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 2557 Local time: 4:44 AM Location: The exact center of my observable universe
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject:
pr126 wrote:
Quote:
You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle
Quote:
the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.
According to Al Qur'an the earth and everything in it belongs to Allah.
But the Bible says that the Earth belongs to Satan. How else could he have legitimatly offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world?
Quote:
Again, the devil takes him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and says to him, All these things will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me
Matt. 4:8-9
And was it not Satan that was referred to in 2 Corinthians 4:4?
Quote:
In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them.
So, if Allah owns the world, and Satan also owns the world, then are not Satan and Allah one and the same individual? _________________ "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth
Last edited by Unbeliever on Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23071 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject:
atheod wrote:
Moloth wrote:
atheod wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol.
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power.
only a slave or the intellectually lazy or dishonest would think so. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 2557 Local time: 4:44 AM Location: The exact center of my observable universe
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject:
atheod wrote:
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power.
Ah, so whoever has the might makes the right? So has it ever been, but some of us would like to change that paradigm. _________________ "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 1242 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject:
I suppose if one was to sit back and imagine life about 25,000 years ago when we might assume that survival was as dependent on the being next to you as his survival was to yours, then perhaps "morality" starts out as self preservation.
There was no such thing as right and wrong, there was only survival and death. Whichever gave us the best chance of survival we would choose to do. So obviously working together enhanced those odds. And looking out for that person that helped your survival was really a simple choice of self preservation.
We call it morality, but I call it cultural evolution. Everything that religion presents as laws was long prescibed as as method of survival or supposed survival.
We can see through history that rape was never considered wrong as long as it was done against a person of another tribe or culture. The evolution of the "laws" against rape are an interesting study in itself. _________________ Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb
Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 4658 Local time: 9:44 PM Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject:
atheod wrote:
Moloth wrote:
atheod wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol.
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power.
Better than this, though still not perfect, is the morality espoused by the majority. Don't say they're the same thing. Rule by minority REQUIRES power. Rule by the majority does not necessarily require power and has the further advantage of being defensible by statistics. I am equatic right with normal. Again, not a perfect solution but better than an appeal to sheer force. _________________ K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 4658 Local time: 9:44 PM Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject:
aitm wrote:
I suppose if one was to sit back and imagine life about 25,000 years ago when we might assume that survival was as dependent on the being next to you as his survival was to yours, then perhaps "morality" starts out as self preservation.
There was no such thing as right and wrong, there was only survival and death. Whichever gave us the best chance of survival we would choose to do. So obviously working together enhanced those odds. And looking out for that person that helped your survival was really a simple choice of self preservation.
We call it morality, but I call it cultural evolution. Everything that religion presents as laws was long prescibed as as method of survival or supposed survival.
We can see through history that rape was never considered wrong as long as it was done against a person of another tribe or culture. The evolution of the "laws" against rape are an interesting study in itself.
Not necessarily survival based, such as laws against rape as you yourself point out. Much of morality is quite specifically designed to curb nature, such as theft. Without a rule against theft, being hungry would be sufficient for permission to steal. _________________ K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 1242 Local time: 6:44 AM Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject:
Good point kmisho, I don't think early mankind "made" a law against theft. We can still watch the natural inclination of man by watching children. They have no preconcieved notions about ownership of toys, we have to teach them.
Theft in early times was probably only theft when you stole from another tribe member, and I imagine due to our still heart held notion of "possesion is 99% of the law, thefts was probably gradually frowned upon due to the killings it led to. Morality in my opinion is as and was as slow to evolve as cultures and society. Moral is what worked for the benefit of the society. Killing newborn girls is considered immoral to us, but not to many existing tribes. Relative, though still disgusting. _________________ Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb
Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Posts: 2259 Local time: 9:44 PM
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:44 am Post subject:
Moloth wrote:
atheod wrote:
Moloth wrote:
atheod wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
The second individual, but the first ought to be the alternative.
Moloth wrote:
Alexis wrote:
A related question:
Which is more virtuous?
An individual that only follows the rules because of their fear of retribution (or possible reward) or a person that follows rules because of their concern for the greater good and their genuine interest in the relief of human suffering?
neither. a truly moral person doesn't have to rely on arbitrary rules in order to do the right thing.
Arbitrary rules are just for those who don't share your morality. You can't force people to share your morality but you can force them to follow rules, a somewhat sufficient alternative.
as i said... they're just a form of control and exertion of power. i'm greedy.. its not enough for me that people are good... they should also be good for the right reasons... lol.
The morality that matters the most is the one backed by the greatest power of control and/or exertion of power.
only a slave or the intellectually lazy or dishonest would think so.
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