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Godless Red Scum
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 Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | I'm not trying to deify Lincoln... i'm sure his shit stank like everyone else's...
But, as an American, i'd rather have the United States than the Union vs. the Confederates.
the greater good, in my opinion, is in the way history played out. if things had gone differently, can you PROVE that slavery would've ended? can you prove that the quality of life for people (all people, regardless of color) on the North American continent would be as good or better than they are now?
i'm not asking for physical proof.. that would involve time travel.. lol. i'm just asking for some reasonable line of thought on this.
again.. what was more important?
freeing the slaves and retaining the Union?
or
allowing slavery to continue by letting the South to secede and become their own sovereign (and competing) nation?
where is the greater good for humanity in this conflict? |
See this is where I get a little schizo on the issue...I'd rather have a confederacy WITHOUT slavery. But given the choices there actually were at the time, yeah union and no slavery trumps confederacy and slavery. |
thank you for your honest answer... i feel very similarly, actually.
there are very, very few time sin history when there is (in my humble opinion) a fairly clear, moral decision to be made.
The American Civil War is one. WWII and the Allies versus the Axis powers is another.
Lincolns driving goal for the Civil War was NOT to free the slaves. i accept this. his choice to 'free' the slaves, including in an area where his influence was debatable at best, was a genius tactical move. now, the ranks of the Union army would swell with black freemen, ex-slaves and even slaves IN the south... of which, there were a LOT.
I feel that the preservation of the Union was noble.. ON the stance that the Confederates were seceding for less-than-moral reasons. Should people be free to break off and form their own nation? well, gee... the Revolutionaries did it to Britain.. lol. however.. what was the motivation? to cause harm? to protect an immoral institution? or to ESCAPE one? the Declaration of Independence is a grocery list of shit King George was perpetrating on the Colonies.
They were both fights for freedom... but the Civil War was a fight for the freedom to enslave. i simply cannot condone that. |
Agreed.
WWII. There's another one you can really pick apart if you want to. It was an inter-imperialist war to be sure, and the Allies did kill millions of civilians in the process (the Dresden fire bombing being a particularly ghastly and unnecessary atrocity), but the moral stakes high enough to where I'm completely comfortable saying the Allies were in the right and the Axis were in the wrong.
Yep, your statement pretty much sums up my thoughts on the Civil War and WWII.
I'll give another, more controversial example, of a "morally justified" war, just for fun-- The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. It's not popular, even on the American Left (inculding amongst many Communist organizations) to say this, but, despite whatever atrocities they may have committed or whatever imperialists designs they may have had, the Soviet Union was 100% morally justified in intervening there, and a Red Army victory would have been for the better. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm....invading other countries--especially countries which didn't attack you--is ok. I'll keep that in mind.
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"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | EVENTUALLY it would have ended. But sooner is better than later. And yeah, if millions had to die to abolish slavery a few decades eariler, it was certainly worth it. |
One death is a tragedy; a million a statistic, right Stalin? |
Sometimes people are killed in the struggle for freedom, that is not a reason not to engage in the struggle.
How many lives can be justifiably spent in the struggle? One? Ten? A thousand? A million? What's the secret formula? At what point of casualties would the American Revolution have become unjustified?
Once the decision has been made to fight for freedom through armed struggle it's very difficult to figure out how many losses are justified-- at a certain point in the fight only victory matters. That's why such decisions should be carefully considered beforehand, although circumstances do not always allow for careful deliberations.
The loss of life in the American Revolution and the Civil War is certainly regrettable, but the blood is on the hands of the oppressors who refused to yield to the cries of freedom, save being forced to do so at gunpoint. While we could cerainly debate on whether or not it would have prevented the war if the feudal lords of the South had not so aggressively clung to their "right" to own slaves, it's just as certain we wouldn't be having this discussion had they not. Years before the war began the slave power showed they were willing to spill blood to preserve and expand their oppressive institution. White blood that is, for hundreds of years even before that spilling Black blood was of no consequence whatsoever. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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frankly, i'm just stunned that someone, anyone, but especially GRS, agrees with me at all on something political! O_O
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | EVENTUALLY it would have ended. But sooner is better than later. And yeah, if millions had to die to abolish slavery a few decades eariler, it was certainly worth it. |
One death is a tragedy; a million a statistic, right Stalin? |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Sometimes people are killed in the struggle for freedom |
The struggle for the southern states to be free, you mean. And Lincoln played the part of King George III, trying to keep the colonies--oops--states in the union.
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | How many lives can be justifiably spent in the struggle? |
Why should there have been such an unconstitution war in the first place?
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The loss of life in the American Revolution and the Civil War is certainly regrettable, but the blood is on the hands of the oppressors who refused to yield to the cries of freedom, save being forced to do so at gunpoint. |
AKA Lincoln and his band of thugs in the case of the War for Southern Independence.
And why do people call it a "Civil War"? It wasn't.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Hmmmm....invading other countries--especially countries which didn't attack you--is ok. I'll keep that in mind. |
If the government of that country invites you in to fight reactionaries trying to topple the government, go back to the stone age and enslave people, and those reactionaries were already being trained, equipped and organized by other nations-- fuck yes it's justified. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Hmmmm....invading other countries--especially countries which didn't attack you--is ok. I'll keep that in mind. |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | If the government of that country invites you in to fight reactionaries trying to topple the government |
...it's still an invasion. And the Afhganis were only fighting to be free of Soviet puppet-rule. Don't you think fighting to be free is good?
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Hmmmm....invading other countries--especially countries which didn't attack you--is ok. I'll keep that in mind. |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | If the government of that country invites you in to fight reactionaries trying to topple the government |
...it's still an invasion. And the Afhganis were only fighting to be free of Soviet puppet-rule. Don't you think fighting to be free is good? |
free to enslave others, you mean? (as in the Civil War)
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Hmmmm....invading other countries--especially countries which didn't attack you--is ok. I'll keep that in mind. |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | If the government of that country invites you in to fight reactionaries trying to topple the government |
...it's still an invasion. And the Afhganis were only fighting to be free of Soviet puppet-rule. Don't you think fighting to be free is good? |
free to enslave others, you mean? (as in the Civil War) |
Exactly. The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free to enslave society and women in particular. Fuck 'em and fuck the Southern feudal lords fighting for the freedom to treat human beings like animals (or worse).
P.S. And it wasn't just the Afghan reactionaries. A large proportion of the mujahadeen weren't even Afghans, but Muslims brought from elsewhere by the U.S., U.K. and Pakistan? Now who's invading? |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free |
....of soviet puppet rule.
What's the matter, hypocrite: don't like it when your argument is used against you?
*spit*
Hypocrites are disgusting.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | P.S. And it wasn't just the Afghan reactionaries. A large proportion of the mujahadeen weren't even Afghans, but Muslims brought from elsewhere by the U.S., U.K. and Pakistan? Now who's invading? |
The Soviets.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free |
....of soviet puppet rule.
What's the matter, hypocrite: don't like it when your argument is used against you?
*spit*
Hypocrites are disgusting. |
And the millions of Islamic reactionaries imported by the U.S., U.K. and Pakistan? And the CIA operatives on the ground before the Soviets even rolled in? What were they fighting for exactly?
Which invasion is worse? The invasion of outsiders to enslave women and impose a theocracy? Or the invasion of outsiders trying to support the secular government and keep women from being re-enslaved? |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free |
....of soviet puppet rule.
What's the matter, hypocrite: don't like it when your argument is used against you?
*spit*
Hypocrites are disgusting. |
you should know. your self-hatred is apparent in every apoplectic post you make, KNoB.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free |
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | ....of soviet puppet rule.
What's the matter, hypocrite: don't like it when your argument is used against you?
*spit*
Hypocrites are disgusting. |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | And the millions of Islamic reactionaries imported by the U.S., U.K. and Pakistan? |
Freedom-fighters.
I can play your game better.
Here's something to think about: what real difference is there between being stripped of all your rights in a soviet system (deny it and I'll just laugh at you) and being stripped of all your rights under the taliban? Answer: none.
So while I have no dog in this hunt, I just wanted to give you the slapping you deserve.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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See, I knew saying the Soviet intervention was justified would lead to some fun. I always catch flak from the left right and center for that one. Even from most Commies.
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The Afghan reactionaries were fighting to be free |
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | ....of soviet puppet rule.
What's the matter, hypocrite: don't like it when your argument is used against you?
*spit*
Hypocrites are disgusting. |
| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | And the millions of Islamic reactionaries imported by the U.S., U.K. and Pakistan? |
Freedom-fighters.
I can play your game better. |
By selectively culling text to give the desired result, yes you can. Congrats, go collect your "I'm a master internet debater" award at the right of the podium.
| Quote: | | Here's something to think about: what real difference is there between being stripped of all your rights in a soviet system (deny it and I'll just laugh at you) and being stripped of all your rights under the taliban? |
For women living in areas under PDPA control there was a huge difference. Under the PDPA government, they could hold jobs, go to school, get a divorce, not agree to an arranged marriage, live alone, not cover their bodies in beekeeper suits, and under the Taliban they were slaves who could be beaten or killed for the slightest attempt at exercising ANY control over their own lives. That's a real difference in my book.
Tell me honestly if you were a woman and had the choice of living under PDPA (or Soviet) rule or living under Taliban rule that you wouldn't answer the former without hesitation.
| Quote: | | So while I have no dog in this hunt, I just wanted to give you the slapping you deserve. |
Oh gee. |
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