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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
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 Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: Thermonuclear fusion Vs Gravitational binding |
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At the heart of the sun, hydrogen is burning to make helium:
4 hydrogen → He + 27 MeV of released energy
But this is only a fraction of the rest mass involved.
Released energy/rest energy = 27MeV/(4x938MeV = 1 %
Now in forming a black hole due the gravitational binding, that is bringing a particle from infinity to a stable bound orbit around a black hole gives the following:
Released energy/rest energy = 1 – (1-2M/r) ÷SQR(1-3M/r)
At r = 6M (for stable circular orbit), this yields 6%, or six times the thermonuclear fusion. For rotating black hole, the yield can be as high as 42%, making the most energetic phenomena in nature. What has been observed recently, New class of black hole could explain cosmic leviathans might shed light on this phenomenon. |
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mknayman
Highly Evolved and Loving It!
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Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Thermonuclear fusion Vs Gravitational binding |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | At the heart of the sun, hydrogen is burning to make helium:
4 hydrogen → He + 27 MeV of released energy
But this is only a fraction of the rest mass involved.
Released energy/rest energy = 27MeV/(4x938MeV = 1 %
Now in forming a black hole due the gravitational binding, that is bringing a particle from infinity to a stable bound orbit around a black hole gives the following:
Released energy/rest energy = 1 – (1-2M/r) ÷SQR(1-3M/r)
At r = 6M (for stable circular orbit), this yields 6%, or six times the thermonuclear fusion. For rotating black hole, the yield can be as high as 42%, making the most energetic phenomena in nature. What has been observed recently, New class of black hole could explain cosmic leviathans might shed light on this phenomenon. |
Prove it.
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"And Yet It Moves..." |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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I was hoping for "Hypermassive" Black Holes to be the next class.
Not "intermediate" |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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"Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive".  |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
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Local time: 5:21 PM
Location: Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Thermonuclear fusion Vs Gravitational binding |
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| mknayman wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | At the heart of the sun, hydrogen is burning to make helium:
4 hydrogen → He + 27 MeV of released energy
But this is only a fraction of the rest mass involved.
Released energy/rest energy = 27MeV/(4x938MeV = 1 %
Now in forming a black hole due the gravitational binding, that is bringing a particle from infinity to a stable bound orbit around a black hole gives the following:
Released energy/rest energy = 1 – (1-2M/r) ÷SQR(1-3M/r)
At r = 6M (for stable circular orbit), this yields 6%, or six times the thermonuclear fusion. For rotating black hole, the yield can be as high as 42%, making the most energetic phenomena in nature. What has been observed recently, New class of black hole could explain cosmic leviathans might shed light on this phenomenon. |
Prove it. |
I would but only if you have taken courses in advanced calculus, differential geometry, general relativity and quantum mechanics. Otherwise, see you in 4? 5? years...  |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | "Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive". |
Yeah, but that stepping stone goes right through a supermassive black hole. I'm sure that event horizon is pretty, but the flaming vortex of various gases and immense gravitational pressure does not sound a pleasant thing to go through. |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Confessionalian wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | "Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive". |
Yeah, but that stepping stone goes right through a supermassive black hole. I'm sure that event horizon is pretty, but the flaming vortex of various gases and immense gravitational pressure does not sound a pleasant thing to go through. |
Those are believed to be a consequence of galaxy mergers, and we don't know if this will happen to our galaxy in the very near future. Because we don't know Andromeda's side velocity, it could collide with our Milky Way in 3, 5 or even 10 billion years. I'm not going to wait that long...  |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Confessionalian wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | "Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive". |
Yeah, but that stepping stone goes right through a supermassive black hole. I'm sure that event horizon is pretty, but the flaming vortex of various gases and immense gravitational pressure does not sound a pleasant thing to go through. |
Those are believed to be a consequence of galaxy mergers, and we don't know if this will happen to our galaxy in the very near future. Because we don't know Andromeda's side velocity, it could collide with our Milky Way in 3, 5 or even 10 billion years. I'm not going to wait that long... |
Well, hopefully, the Earth won't get ejected out of the new galaxy upon collision...or land near any pulsars because of the galactic upheaval and resulting drift. Having the atmosphere ripped asunder and the surface turn molten or being without a source of heat is kinda up there with being blackhole'd. |
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Kniva
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Confessionalian wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | "Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive". |
Yeah, but that stepping stone goes right through a supermassive black hole. I'm sure that event horizon is pretty, but the flaming vortex of various gases and immense gravitational pressure does not sound a pleasant thing to go through. |
The shear forces at the event horizon of a black hole depend on it's radius. In case of a supermassive BH, the "surface" would be so large, that the inertia effect would be far from lethal to human beings. The EH actually isn't the actual surface of the object "Black Hole", the mass of the BH is concentrated in its center. Any object that passes the EH will inevitably fall into it's center and then transfom into radiation captured within the center (the singularity). |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Kniva wrote: | | Confessionalian wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | "Intermediate" is good as it could be a stepping stone to "hypermassive". |
Yeah, but that stepping stone goes right through a supermassive black hole. I'm sure that event horizon is pretty, but the flaming vortex of various gases and immense gravitational pressure does not sound a pleasant thing to go through. |
The shear forces at the event horizon of a black hole depend on it's radius. In case of a supermassive BH, the "surface" would be so large, that the inertia effect would be far from lethal to human beings. The EH actually isn't the actual surface of the object "Black Hole", the mass of the BH is concentrated in its center. Any object that passes the EH will inevitably fall into it's center and then transfom into radiation captured within the center (the singularity). |
I'm aware. Because of the sheer size of a supermassive blackhole one could leisurely drift past the event horizon and remain alive for a few hours before tidal forces teach you a lesson in matter elongation. Conversely, a stellar-mass black hole would be more instant. |
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Kniva
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, the leathal forces would appear during the fall into the center. BTW, the question when an object actually passes the EH is not a simple one (it's also subject to the relativity of reference systems). |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kniva wrote: | | Yes, the leathal forces would appear during the fall into the center. BTW, when an object actually passes the Eh is not a simple question (it's also subject to reference systems). |
Of course. However, you could also could also lengthen your final descent into the gravity pit by tampering with acceleration of the spacecraft you should be in. And that fixture of time you win before your unavoidable fate would depend on the level of technology you possess and your fuel source. I don't think we'll have the ability to physically stumble upon any black holes for a few hundred years so we should have pocket sized fusion reactors by then. So hey, a couple of weeks before your ripped asunder. Great vacation for the kids. |
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Kniva
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I doubt it would be worth to die for this experience as (in theory) there are some causality issues within the sphere formed by the EH that would probably prevent one from seeing anything. |
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Confesionalian
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Unless you want a spectacular suicide. They could tell all their dead friends as St. Peter tries to put his/her atoms back together. |
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