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Specus_Meretricis
Peddler of Bombast
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| benyjets23 wrote: | Hey,
For the record: I am a Christian (Evangelical Roman Catholic). I am an old Earther and an Evolutionist. I have been hooked on evolution since the first Jurassic Park came in 1994. I am interested in the works of Hugh Ross. But I fall in the camp of Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne and others.
I also think it is ironic that my one post essentialy ended the value of the thread as it stems from the original post, and yet no one seems to notice or care. I guess the argument is more important than truth, facts and proper conclusions.
Ben |
Wow. Nice E-Ego there. Or they decided to continue on with or without you. |
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benyjets23
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Specus,
Since my post was contextualized to the original post, and not thread contents in general, strength of point as opposed to ego underlies what I said.
Ben |
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Benjirama
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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Location: England (just south of london but north of brighton, quite litterally 5 minuites south of the M25)
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyInABox wrote: |
I have to agree with the other Christians posting on this thread that the earth is somewhere around six thousand years old. However, I don't rely on faith to believe this. I mean, faith is all well and good, but solid evidence in the contrary outdoes it any day. So if the evidence points to an ancient earth, then your question is legitimate. But does it? |
I am sorry man but your so wrong it hurts reality.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Our oceans contain concentrations of Aluminum, Antinomy, Barium, Bicarbonate, Bismuth, Calcium, Carbonates, Chlorine, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Gold, Iron, Lead, Lithium, Manganese, Magnesium, Mercury, Molybdenum, Nickel, Potassium, Rubidium, Silicon, Silver, Sodium, Strontium, Sulfate, Thorium, Tin, Titanium, Tungsten, Uranium, and Zinc. The river systems add to these concentrations at fixed apparent rates. Comparing the amounts already in the oceans with the rates at which more are being dumped, indicates the earth, as well as its river systems and oceans, are fairly young. |
Most of the minerals in the oceans come from submarine volcanism, not fluvial sources. So by quoting the wrong source of the elements you immediately create a false argument.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Sediments are being eroded into our oceans at a fixed rate. There are only a few thousand years worth of sediments on the ocean floor. |
Erosion rarely happens at a fixed rate. Erosion and deposition are wholly determined by the environment in which it is prevalent. Environments of course constantly shift according to seasons, and meteorological patterns (Also to say they are subject to the occasional massive energy events, like storm surges etc.). I also feel that your are misunderstanding the nature of the sediments upon the ocean floor, since most of the ocean is an open pelagic environment it lacks input from silicate sources (i.e. rivers) this means the deposits found on the ocean floors are carbonate as opposed to land born sediment. On continental shelves the depositions are relatively young since deltas are in a constant state of advance or retreat (depending on predominate environmental stresses). That’s the short answer any way.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
The Earth's magnetic field has been accurately measured since 1829. Since 1829, it has decayed 7%. It is decaying exponentially at a fixed rate. By graphing the curve, we see that approximately 22,000 years ago the Earth's field would have been as strong as the Sun's. Life would have been impossible. |
The earth's magnetic field is cause by the relative rotation of the outer liquid metal core around the solid metal inner core. Whilst this is still happening the earth’s magnetic field will remain. Furthermore the only way to halt this process is to stop the spinning of the liquid core, and the only way to do that is to bring the planet in to tectonic quintessence, (or in other words cool it down so much it becomes solid). We still can prove we have a healthy liquid core, we still have volcanoes so, and therefore we still have a magnetic field. The decay you are suggesting is probably due to natural variation; this is something that works over a geological time span so I imagine it is somewhat wasted endeavour to base your predictions on less than a hundred years of data.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Comets are constantly losing matter. They are losing and losing and never gaining. "Short Period Comets" (like Haley's comet), which have predictable orbits, should deteriorate to nothing within 10,000 years. Why are there still Short Period Comets? |
Comets, their birth, life and death still remain mostly unknown to us. You over exaggerate the rate of decay, ice comets only begin to ablate their outer layers once the orbit takes them close enough to a sun; for most of their lives comets are a lone body in space and therefore unaffected. Overall it is hard to assert a lifespan to something we know so little about. However it is likely comets come from the Kyper belt, the Kyper belt is what one would expect from a solar system formed by gravitational sorting (the current accepted model), the implications of which predicts an old solar system.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Jupiter is losing heat twice as fast as it gains it from the Sun (it is five times further from the Sun than Earth). Yet Jupiter is still hot. If it is billions of years old, shouldn't it have cooled off by now? |
Probably, because you do not seem to appreciate exactly how energetic the birth of our solar system was.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Jupiter's moon, Ganymede, which is roughly the size of Mercury, has a strong magnetic field, a possible indication that it is still hot. Why hasn't it cooled down? |
My goodness... You’re serious. Its not just Ganymede that shows signs of a still hot interior, Europa as we all know is predicted to have a semi liquid core, and then there is Io. Io is the most volcanically active body in the whole damn solar system; it has raging volcanoes spewing molten sulphur endlessly. It will probably keep on like this till its orbit decays enough for it to collide into Jupiter. Yet all of these moons are far too small to sustain a molten core by conventional means (i.e. radioactive decay of elements in the core.), Mars and Mercury both have suffered this tectonic death of quintessence and yet hot cores remain in these moons despite their diminutive stature.
Gravity solves this problem. Tidal heating: the gravitational pull of Jupiter tugs on the orbiting moons, it distorts their shape and causes massive internal flexing, the end point of this is internal friction which of course turns into heat and vola, we have hot cores, which means Io can cheerfully chuck out violence for the rest of its days.
Here's just few examples of tidal heating.
Io, and its massively volcanic surface.
A close up of Europa endlessly cracked and reformed surface.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Saturn's rings are not stable. They are drifting away from Saturn. If Saturn is billions of years old, why does it still have rings?
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Ahhhh Saturn's rings, they really are fantastic ain't they, but here's the kicker we know next to nothing about them. The current opinion is that they formed from one of the following hypothesises.
1. Halted accretion: All planets form from accretion (that is the gradual gathering of materials due to gravitational forces). If this hypothesis is correct the rings of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are due to a halting of this process, probably due to some form of centrifugal force associated with the orbits.
2. Pulverisation: There other hypothesis considers the possibility of a moon within Saturn’s orbit being torn apart by tidal gravitation due to its dangerously close orbit (this is of course the very same mechanism that leads to Io's volcanisicity, though much greater in veracity.)
As you notice both of the above ideas are not theories but hypothesises. We know so little about the rings that placing speculation on their origin or death is merely that, speculation.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Lunar Recession. The moon is slowing moving farther away from the Earth. This has to do with the fact that the Earth’s spin is slowing down due to tidal friction and other factors. Lunar recession was first observed by Edmund Halley in late 1600s (the same Edmund Halley who is credited with being the first to predict the 76-year orbit of the famous comet which bears his name). Given the rate of lunar recession today, the fact that it has gradually accelerated over time, and upon taking several other factors into consideration, physicists have determined that the Earth-moon system could not have existed beyond 1.2 billion years (you can review the mathematical equations involved at http://www.creationscience.com/). This is 3.4 billion years less time than Old-Earth advocates are willing to accept. Furthermore, the closer the moon gets to the Earth, the greater its influence on our tides. We can’t go too far back in time before we would all drown twice a day. |
Honestly I am not sure of the answer to this, but considering that nearly all of the above questions lack understanding of the subjects they attack, I am inclined to say that the same rings true with this one.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
The rotation of the earth is slowing at a fixed rate. We are losing one second every year and a half. If the young age of the earth is correct, then we've lost a little bit more than an hour in all, but if the old age of the earth is correct we've lost about seven hundred and fifty hours. |
I do not see an issue here, in fact there is evidence in the geological record that the rotation of the earth has indeed changed speed at periods in past. It has to do with the way mountains ranges collapse into basins. Mountains die (to put it poetically) when their root breaks off and sinks into the mantle, eventually to be melted away. During the process of a massive piece of crust sinking into the earth our planet's density is repositioned in bias to the centre, thus the earth's rotation increases. It is very much similar to a figure skater drawing her arms inwards to increase the speed of her spin.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
In 1999, the human population passed six billion. In 1985, it passed five billion. In 1962, it passed three billion. In 1800, it passed one billion. In 1 AD, the world's population, according to the censuses taken by the governments of that time, was only 250 million. At the current human population growth rate, considering wars and famines and all such variables, it would take approximately 5,000 years to get the current population from two original people. |
Yup, but this is assuming the rate of population growth has been constant throughout our history. Our population does not start increasing exponentially until the turn of this century, you have pencilin to thank for that.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Continental Erosion and Fossil Remains. The continents are eroding at such a rate that, if not for tectonic uplift, meteoric dusting and volcanic influx, they would erode flat (Mt. Everest and all) in less than 25 million years. At this rate, high-altitude million-year-old fossils should have long since eroded away. And yet they remain. The implication is that these fossils are not millions of years old. If this were true, the entire Geologic Column would need serious revision (see our article on the Geologic Column). |
No offence meant mate but it seems you are really getting out of your depth here.
It seems that over massive time periods and whilst under atrocious stress rocks behave like liquids, the implications of this is quite profound, the growing mountains chains of the world are allot younger than we assumed, in fact due to the fact that once mountains growth stops rocks begin to settle again, the younger the mountains the higher they tend to be.
Also in orogenic belts (that’s geology for mountain) rock sequences are rarely flat so it is unlikely you would see an entire strata eroded out of the sequence.
A cross section of the alps, notice the lack of horizontal strata
Also this question fails to realise that, erosion differs from area to area, and effects different rocks at different rates. Some places would have no erosion what so ever.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Subterranean Fluid Pressure. When a drill rig strikes oil, it sometimes gushes out in huge fountains. This is because the oil is often under huge amounts of pressure from the sheer weight of the rock sitting on top of it. Other subterranean fluids kept under pressure include natural gas and water. The problem is, the rock above many pressurized subterranean fluid deposits are relatively permeable. The pressure should escape in less than 100,000 years. And yet these deposits remain highly pressurized. Once again, because of the supposed antiquity of these deposits and their location throughout the Geologic Column, this observation calls into question some of the interpretations which have led to the formulation of the column. |
The vast majority of oil reservoirs have to lost due to natural seepage. The ones which are currently in use are often found under synclines of impermeable "cap rocks". Evaportites and other salt based rocks seem to be the best for this.
Here's a cure yet typical example of your ideal oil reservoir.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
Global Cooling. In the 19th Century, the renowned physicist and inventor Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) was the first to point out that if the Earth began in a white hot molten state, it would have cooled to its current temperature billions of years sooner than the 4.6 billion years accepted today. Since then, Old-Earth advocates have pointed out that radioactive decay within the Earth would greatly slow down the cooling process. Young-Earth advocates respond that even given liberal assumptions concerning the amount of heat produced by radioactive decay, the Earth would still cool to its current temperature much sooner than Old-Earth advocates allow. |
That would be because the young earth advocates are wrong. Also its not just radioactive decay that gave the earth heat energy, its meteorite impacts as well.
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
There is more evidence against dating methods, the Geologic Column, the Big Bang, etc., but I don't have time to pull them all up off my computer. Now please understand that facts are very important to me. If you have proof disproving the young earth theory, please post it or e-mail it to me at expression@myself.com. |
Sorry man but you really seem to lack the basic understanding of geology. These assertions are not just wrong but they are based on ideas that lack some rather important facts.
I could go on, but maybe later
_________________
"People who boast about their I.Q. are losers." Stephen Hawking
| CrazyInABox wrote: |
As for the donkey, the book of Numbers says that God opened her mouth. Since God is all powerful, this really isn't as shocking as it first seems. |
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BobSpence1
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just like to add a couple of points:
The ocean floors are relatively young - they spread out from places like the mid-atlantc ridge, and eventually disappear in subjection zones back into the mantle, typically at continental plate boundaries.
The Earth's magnetic field does not simply decay at a fixed rate, it continually cycles and reverses direction, as evidenced by the magnetic record in rocks spreading out from places like those mid-ocean ridges. So any assumption based on a fixed rate of decay is totally incorrect.
The rate of rotation if the Earth is affected by our interaction with the moon through tidal drag, which is speeding up the moon and slowing down the Earth.
Even this is not a simple constant process, the rate of slowing is itself slowing.
Any arguments based on assumptions that any changes we observe today must have maintained that same rate indefinitely simple betray massive ignorance of reality.
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"To a committed free-thinker, blasphemy is not a crime but a duty" - me
"I believe that when I die , I will rot" - Bertrand Russell
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| excidius wrote: | The earth is only 6,000 years old, and the false religions are a result of a combination of the Tower of Babel and Satanic deception.
Woohoo! Give me my Templeton prize for reconciling Christianity and anthropology.  |
*sigh*
That IS in fact the correct answer . . . unfortunately. 
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CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| WWFStern wrote: | | Call it an appeal to ad hominem, but I cannot take anybody seriously who legitimately contends that the Earth is only 6000 years old. After making such an absurd assertion, I never could take any of that person's arguments seriously. |
I know EXACTLY what you mean. 
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | WWFStern wrote: | | Call it an appeal to ad hominem, but I cannot take anybody seriously who legitimately contends that the Earth is only 6000 years old. After making such an absurd assertion, I never could take any of that person's arguments seriously. |
I know EXACTLY what you mean. |
Ditto. I suggest we stop arguing this point entirely in this thread because it actually gives some sort of merit to their argument, which it shouldn't. The young-earth argument shouldn't even be dignified with a response. This kind of belief might as well be coupled with people raising from the dead and one man killing 1000 people with jaw bone of a donkey. BTW, just for those who didn't believe that the good book didn't ACTUALLY contain that last little fun fact... Judges 15:14-17 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands. 15 Finding a fresh jawbone of a donkey, he grabbed it and struck down a thousand men.
16 Then Samson said,
"With a donkey's jawbone
I have made donkeys of them. [a]
With a donkey's jawbone
I have killed a thousand men."
17 When he finished speaking, he threw away the jawbone; and the place was called Ramath Lehi."
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | WWFStern wrote: | | Call it an appeal to ad hominem, but I cannot take anybody seriously who legitimately contends that the Earth is only 6000 years old. After making such an absurd assertion, I never could take any of that person's arguments seriously. |
I know EXACTLY what you mean. |
Ditto. I suggest we stop arguing this point entirely in this thread because it actually gives some sort of merit to their argument, which it shouldn't. The young-earth argument shouldn't even be dignified with a response. |
I respond, I just don't respond by arguing. That would validate their ideas. I respond by treating them like a child has just introduced me to their invisible friend.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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FlatEarth1024
Hey, Everybody!
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
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Location: Dippin' my balls in it.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | I respond, I just don't respond by arguing. That would validate their ideas. I respond by treating them like a child has just introduced me to their invisible friend. |
Right. Give his ass 2-3 good whacks, send him to bed without dinner, and tell him that if you have to come up there... "You AND your invisible friend are gonna have a reason to cry!!!"
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| FlatEarth1024 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I respond, I just don't respond by arguing. That would validate their ideas. I respond by treating them like a child has just introduced me to their invisible friend. |
Right. Give his ass 2-3 good whacks, send him to bed without dinner, and tell him that if you have to come up there... "You AND your invisible friend are gonna have a reason to cry!!!" |
The only sad thing is that these crazy YEC's are adults! I think an adult having an invisible friend is actually diagnosible these days 
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Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four. |
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Cairoman
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Theist of the Bible fall into 3-groups: Jews, Muslims and Christians.
I have always been troubled by the Statistics showing:
Jews with 3-divisions, sects and/or groups.
Muslims with 5-divisions, sects and/or cults.
(drum roll please)
But the winners are; Christians with 580-denominations, sects, cults, groups, divisions, beliefs, etc, etc, etc.
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Cairoman
Lov'n the Lord & Liv'n the Life... |
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benyjets23
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Cairoman,
I guess you are one of these types that are into thought control. It does not suprise me. Insecurity leads to controling people through an iron fist. We see it on the governmental level, the international level and in spousal abuse cases.
Christianities diversity in the first century til today is an indicator of how well Christianity works. The idea that by far all of those christian groups have a core theological structure (bodily resurrection, trinity, salvation through Christs death, biblical inspiration, the personality of the holy spirit etc. etc.) and yet by and large (with some execeptions) it has been done with a spirit of unity.
Your view of life is about sheep smelling each others ass in single file..... I choose a better option.
Ben |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| benyjets23 wrote: | | The idea that by far all of those christian groups have a core theological structure (bodily resurrection, trinity, salvation through Christs death, biblical inspiration, the personality of the holy spirit etc. etc.) |
While I can kinda sorta agree with your post in general, I have problems with this part.
All the things you mentioned (well, maybe except for biblical inspiration) are exactly the things Christians disagreed over from the very beginning of their religion!
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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Friend
thinking
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| benyjets23 wrote: | Cairoman,
I guess you are one of these types that are into thought control. It does not suprise me. Insecurity leads to controling people through an iron fist. We see it on the governmental level, the international level and in spousal abuse cases. |
It could easily be said you're into thought control, because Cairoman doesn't agree with your thoughts.
| benyjets23 wrote: | | Christianities diversity in the first century til today is an indicator of how well Christianity works. The idea that by far all of those christian groups have a core theological structure (bodily resurrection, trinity, salvation through Christs death, biblical inspiration, the personality of the holy spirit etc. etc.) and yet by and large (with some execeptions) it has been done with a spirit of unity. |
Nope. Look up:
Nontrinitarianism
The most you can say about Christians is that they believe in some interpretation or other of a New Testament bible involving some view or other of the Christ figure. Even an atheist can be a self-declared Christian in a way by saying s/he follows the nontheistic teachings of the Christ character. But then, the same could be said of any obfuscative piece of writing.
| benyjets23 wrote: | | Your view of life is about sheep smelling each others ass in single file..... I choose a better option. |
Meaningless Ad Hominem. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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Local time: 3:24 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Cairoman wrote: | (drum roll please)
But the winners are; Christians with 580-denominations, sects, cults, groups, divisions, beliefs, etc, etc, etc. |
My understanding is that number is more like 10,000
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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