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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: |
| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | Makes assassinations a more real threat as well. |
And that's a bad thing?  |
Depends on the president...and the vice president.
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"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2421
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | I think its the public getting exactly what they want.
we had folks like Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, and they barly got even 5 percentage points.
the public WANTS what we have now and thats why we have it.
as carlin once said, its not the politicians that suck, its the public. |
You are right and you are wrong. You underestimate the effect of a well structured political machine to control the process. Look at the local political machines in your area and see how they actively operate to keep out those not part of the inner system.
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Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
LakeGeorgeMan actually think's I'm Socrates.
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Philosophos
Do it
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | redraiderdude187 wrote: | | Proportional representation would be a nice start. |
It's not all it's cracked up to be.
Basically in a proportional representation system nothing ever gets done, because there is almost nothing all the parties can agree on. |
This isn't something an an-cap should say...
Is Ivan a pod, too?
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Ivan_Ivanov
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Yes, but your country has a radically different history than the U.S.. Poland has been invaded by foreign powers so many times... I'm sure that has some effect on the politics of your country, doesn't it? |
I'm not sure if all the wars we went through have anything to do with it, but I'll grant you the circumstances are completely different here then in the US.
Over here a winner-takes-all system would probably be better even if that meant the bad guys (whoever you believe them to be) would win initially.
Let them knock themselves out and ruin the country, after that the good guys will win and get through with real reforms.
The initial crisis is probably worth getting out of the limbo between socialism and capitalism.
In the US on the other hand, with the two parties essentially becoming one, there's a need to let in some alternatives.
I was just pointing out that both systems have their problems.
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | This isn't something an an-cap should say... |
Add:
"You should smash the state, then the electoral process won't be a problem. But as long you're going to have one, consider this..."
at the beginning of my post, if you have trouble getting your head around it, as it is
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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sentient_puddle
Visitor
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like proportional representation in Canada, but i guess the situation in Poland is entirely diferent. |
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PJS
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
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Location: Clearwater,Fl.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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The two major parties have been in decline for decades. Growing numbers identify as independents. There has been an increase in split-ticket voting. Single issue organizations have proliferated as well; these groups focus on one issue and largely ignore the wider range that traditional parties address.
Yet our parties are quite old by international standards and the existence of a two party system is rooted in the beginning of the nation-Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Single member congressional districts, laws which make it difficult for third parties to get candidates on ballots and the sheer force of tradition are strong counterweights to any third party gaining steam.
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The path of least resistance and least trouble is a mental rut already made. It requires troublesome work to undertake the alternation of old beliefs.
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gnosis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| PJS wrote: | The two major parties have been in decline for decades. Growing numbers identify as independents. There has been an increase in split-ticket voting. Single issue organizations have proliferated as well; these groups focus on one issue and largely ignore the wider range that traditional parties address.
Yet our parties are quite old by international standards and the existence of a two party system is rooted in the beginning of the nation-Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Single member congressional districts, laws which make it difficult for third parties to get candidates on ballots and the sheer force of tradition are strong counterweights to any third party gaining steam. |
At least it sounds like the only thing we can't change there is tradition. Hopefully the movement to eliminate those "counterweights" will gain some traction.
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: The two party system |
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| gnosis wrote: | | As atheists (or otherwise), what do you think is necessary for a third party to become truly viable in the United States? |
The re-writing of the election laws to eliminate the duo/monopoly.
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chookrooter
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Hillbilly: " as carlin once said, its not the politicians that suck, its the public."
CR Really? You're lucky,in my country it's both. ;o)
The more I look at countries such as UK, Australia and The US ,the more convinced I become that a country gets the government it deserves. In these societies,the balance of power is not held by the lumpen proletariat,but by the swinging-voter-members of the greedy middle classes,who seem invariably to vote with their hip pocket. |
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Rortykiller
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Joined: 15 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Re: The two party system |
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| gnosis wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-party_system
One of the toughest issues I find myself facing politically in the United States is the monopoly over the political system that the Democrats and Republicans hold. All too often I find myself choosing between the "lesser of two evils", simply because I know that if I do not vote Democrat a Republican will most likely win, which will probably end up giving the wacko religious fundamentalists in the government even more power.
As atheists (or otherwise), what do you think is necessary for a third party to become truly viable in the United States? |
I'm not fond of a lot of the responses. The president of America's dreams is a populist. He will be anti-tax, a nationalist who prevents our country from importing goods too cheaply and keeps our borders fully secure. He will be interested in congressional reform, preventing lobbyists from controlling congress. In addition, he'll eliminate the mass amount of redundancies and expenses in our governments, starting with removing homeland security, the DEA, and other unnecessary organizations and absorbing them into the FBI and CIA. The president will increase our economy by investing in peace missions instead of missions of war. And lastly, he'll ignore all topical tripe, from abortion to homosexuality, leaving it up to states. |
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gnosis
Forum Master
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: The two party system |
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| Rortykiller wrote: |
I'm not fond of a lot of the responses. The president of America's dreams is a populist. He will be anti-tax, a nationalist who prevents our country from importing goods too cheaply and keeps our borders fully secure. He will be interested in congressional reform, preventing lobbyists from controlling congress. In addition, he'll eliminate the mass amount of redundancies and expenses in our governments, starting with removing homeland security, the DEA, and other unnecessary organizations and absorbing them into the FBI and CIA. The president will increase our economy by investing in peace missions instead of missions of war. And lastly, he'll ignore all topical tripe, from abortion to homosexuality, leaving it up to states. |
I absolutely agree with everything you said except the "topical tripe" part, which is a human rights issue in my opinion. State power or no, the religious right shouldn't be able to infringe on the rights of any individual.
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 1152
Local time: 6:55 AM
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: The two party system |
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| Rortykiller wrote: | | I'm not fond of a lot of the responses. The president of America's dreams is a populist. He will be anti-tax, a nationalist who prevents our country from importing goods too cheaply and keeps our borders fully secure. He will be interested in congressional reform, preventing lobbyists from controlling congress. In addition, he'll eliminate the mass amount of redundancies and expenses in our governments, starting with removing homeland security, the DEA, and other unnecessary organizations and absorbing them into the FBI and CIA. The president will increase our economy by investing in peace missions instead of missions of war. And lastly, he'll ignore all topical tripe, from abortion to homosexuality, leaving it up to states. |
QFT. Does anyone know of a politician similar to this? I sure don't.
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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i'm voting for Rorty!
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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Local time: 1:55 PM
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Re: The two party system |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | QFT. Does anyone know of a politician similar to this? I sure don't. |
Ron Paul, if you don't count the protectionist nonsense about imports.
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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