| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
  |
|
Reading the Wikipedia entry on dependent arising, I came across this curiosity:
| Quote: | | The Heart Sutra (Prajñāpāramitā Hridaya Sūtra) asserts that there is no karma, no law of cause and effect. |
Now, I've never read the Heart Sutra, and most of my reading about Buddhism thus far has been from the Pali sources. I'm somewhat familiar with the concept of emptiness, but stating the outright denial of karma is a little strange to me, as karma plays a huge role in what I've read so far.
Is this true? Anyone care to expound on this?
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4958
Local time: 9:54 AM
Location: Minnesota
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | Reading the Wikipedia entry on dependent arising, I came across this curiosity:
| Quote: | | The Heart Sutra (Prajñāpāramitā Hridaya Sūtra) asserts that there is no karma, no law of cause and effect. |
Now, I've never read the Heart Sutra, and most of my reading about Buddhism thus far has been from the Pali sources. I'm somewhat familiar with the concept of emptiness, but stating the outright denial of karma is a little strange to me, as karma plays a huge role in what I've read so far.
Is this true? Anyone care to expound on this? |
Since this is religion, a "true" answer can't be proved. But yes, as one becomes more enlightened, the realization is there that karma as is commonly thought of is not necessary and shouldn't be taught any more than hell should be taught. Although in my growth system karma seemed a lot fairer, more merciful than hell  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Are you referring specifically to the Heart Sutra, Sha, or are you speaking generally or from a specific (presumably Mahayanan) position?
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4958
Local time: 9:54 AM
Location: Minnesota
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm speaking from general experience of that philosophy and similar ones.
It's like seeing the bible metaphorically instead of literally. When you read it carefully, there is no hell. Same is true fo karma. When you really get into eastern mysticism, karma isn't.
Which is quite cool in the scheme of things IMO.
Since I sort of answered from experience and not from reading the Sutras, you probably won't get an answer unless CET has read them. I expect a forum where that is an interest to many might be where you can get detailed discussion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I found it online, and I'm ashamed that I didn't look it up earlier, as it can be read in about 2 minutes. Literally.
And while I suppose that it denies karma in spirit, it doesn't do so explicitly.
It does deny dharma: "All dharmas are empty in character." However, I highly suspect that this is the use of the term "dharma" as moments of consciousness, not the teaching. But I'm sure that "the" dharma is also empty according to the writer, as this is what the doctrine of emptiness leads to.
The only thing that might come close to denying karma are the following:
"Therefore, in emptiness, there is no form;
there is no feeling, conception, volition, or consciousness"
"There is no suffering, no cause, no extinction, no path."
The bolded words may be possible understandings or translations of karma. However, the Heart Sutra is translated from Chinese, so I'm unsure that the Sanskrit word "karma" would make its appearance in these texts. Furthermore, I can't read Chinese. I do know that in many Buddhist texts that were translated from Sanskrit into Chinese during the early movement of Buddhism into China, Taoist concepts were used in translation, such as nirvana -> wu wei, and dharma -> tao. But I'm unsure of how the words are used in the Heart Sutra.
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | Reading the Wikipedia entry on dependent arising, I came across this curiosity:
| Quote: | | The Heart Sutra (Prajñāpāramitā Hridaya Sūtra) asserts that there is no karma, no law of cause and effect. |
Now, I've never read the Heart Sutra, and most of my reading about Buddhism thus far has been from the Pali sources. I'm somewhat familiar with the concept of emptiness, but stating the outright denial of karma is a little strange to me, as karma plays a huge role in what I've read so far.
Is this true? Anyone care to expound on this? |
The Heart Sutra can summed up when Avalokiteshvara says "Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form." To understand The Heart Sutra, one has to understand "emptiness".
"Emptiness", as I understand it, is synonymous with nirvana, which is a state of being completely free of conditioning. You are completely autonomous, and see things for what they truly are. You are no longer controlled by your emotions (though you still have emotions), your own inner thoughts, what others say, etc.
"Emptiness" is a blank slate on which anything can be written and clearly seen for what it truly is. If one is not "empty", it is like trying to draw on a piece of paper that has already been drawn on. It's difficult to make out what you just drew, as opposed to what was drawn before. The more you draw on it, the more difficult it becomes. Prajna paramita is attained through meditation, which is the "defrag" that allows you to become "empty" so that you may see things for what they are.
Lasting "emptiness", or nirvana, is to be free from karma, which in itself is conversation that could take on its own forum. 
The Heart Sutra is one of the most profound Buddhist writings, and understanding it takes a lifetime. It can be understood in so many different ways that to explore it in a single thread wouldn't begin to even scratch the surface. The Heart Sutra is about "prajna paramita", the perfection of wisdom, and wisdom cannot be taught; it must be discovered.
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | Well, I found it online, and I'm ashamed that I didn't look it up earlier, as it can be read in about 2 minutes. Literally.
And while I suppose that it denies karma in spirit, it doesn't do so explicitly.
It does deny dharma: "All dharmas are empty in character." However, I highly suspect that this is the use of the term "dharma" as moments of consciousness, not the teaching. But I'm sure that "the" dharma is also empty according to the writer, as this is what the doctrine of emptiness leads to. |
That's not a denial of dharma. Unfortunately, the concept of "emptiness" does not translate well into English. We don't really have a word that means the same things.
| Philosophos wrote: | The only thing that might come close to denying karma are the following:
"Therefore, in emptiness, there is no form;
there is no feeling, conception, volition, or consciousness"
"There is no suffering, no cause, no extinction, no path."
The bolded words may be possible understandings or translations of karma. However, the Heart Sutra is translated from Chinese, so I'm unsure that the Sanskrit word "karma" would make its appearance in these texts. Furthermore, I can't read Chinese. I do know that in many Buddhist texts that were translated from Sanskrit into Chinese during the early movement of Buddhism into China, Taoist concepts were used in translation, such as nirvana -> wu wei, and dharma -> tao. But I'm unsure of how the words are used in the Heart Sutra. |
My understanding is that "emptiness" translates pretty well from Sanscrit and Pali to Chinese and Japanese.
My understanding is that China took so well to Buddhism because it so closely resembles it. Most of the basic Buddhist concepts are present in Taoism. Then there are the Confucianists, who only needed to grow past the narrow constraints given by Mencius and Hzun Tzu to develop Neo-Confucianism, which melded very nicely with Taoism and Buddhism to give us Ch'an, which migrated to Japan and became Zen. The point being, these traditions all arose within just a few years of each other, so closely resemble each other, and anti-dogmatic (they all teach non-attachment) that fusing and melding was not only easy, but practically inevitable.
I usually tend to trust Chinese and Japanese translations, particularly when it comes to the most sacred of sutras. Even then, it's always better to go to the source, because even the best of translations are still interpretations. If I'm not mistaken, The Heart Sutra was originally written in Pali.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| CET wrote: | | "Emptiness", as I understand it, is synonymous with nirvana, which is a state of being completely free of conditioning. |
This isn't my understanding of emptiness at all. Nagarjuna writes in The Fundamental Verses Of The Middle Way:
| Quote: | | There is nothing whatever which differentiates samsara from nirvana; and there is nothing whatever which differentiates nirvana from samsara. The extreme limit of nirvana is also the extreme limit of samsara; there is not the slightest bit of difference between these two. |
Emptiness seems to be the fact that labels, including that of samsara and nirvana, have no inherent meaning.
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CET wrote: | | That's not a denial of dharma. |
But isn't "dharma" used to mean "moments of time/consciousness" as well as "the teaching"?
| Quote: | | My understanding is that China took so well to Buddhism because it so closely resembles it. Most of the basic Buddhist concepts are present in Taoism. Then there are the Confucianists, who only needed to grow past the narrow constraints given by Mencius and Hzun Tzu to develop Neo-Confucianism, which melded very nicely with Taoism and Buddhism to give us Ch'an, which migrated to Japan and became Zen. The point being, these traditions all arose within just a few years of each other, so closely resemble each other, and anti-dogmatic (they all teach non-attachment) that fusing and melding was not only easy, but practically inevitable. |
That's more or less my understanding of Zen development as well, although I'm not sure how much Confucian influence I see in it, perhaps beyond some familial piety.
| Quote: | | If I'm not mistaken, The Heart Sutra was originally written in Pali. |
Dunno, but I think the Heart Sutra was composed after Pali fell into disuse. Wikipedia cites the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Buddhism as stating that while the Heart Sutra is known to be written in both Sanskrit and Chinese, internal evidence suggests that it was first composed in Chinese, then back-translated into Sanskrit.
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | | CET wrote: | | "Emptiness", as I understand it, is synonymous with nirvana, which is a state of being completely free of conditioning. |
This isn't my understanding of emptiness at all. Nagarjuna writes in The Fundamental Verses Of The Middle Way:
| Philosophos wrote: | | There is nothing whatever which differentiates samsara from nirvana; and there is nothing whatever which differentiates nirvana from samsara. The extreme limit of nirvana is also the extreme limit of samsara; there is not the slightest bit of difference between these two. |
Emptiness seems to be the fact that labels, including that of samsara and nirvana, have no inherent meaning. |
Buddhism isn't against labeling, in fact labeling is often necessary, especially in the Theravada tradition and a mindfulness practice. In a mindfulness practice you learn to label things in order to recognize them when they come up, but you are discouraged from placing meaning and value on those labels. Something we tend to do a lot is to attach meaning and value, and that is much of what's happening here. Nagarjuna is referring to the value in these things. This is especially so when you get deeper into practice and start working with things we're usually averse to, such as pain.
For example:
You're in traffic and someone cuts you off. You notice that you start feeling angry, so you say to yourself, "I'm feeling angry." That is simply an observation for what's happening, as it truly is.
What usually happens next is story telling and assignment of meaning and value. "My anger is a bad thing, and I shouldn't get angry. My anger means that I'm not a good person." or "That person made me angry. My anger is the fault of this other person's poor actions, that means that person must not be a good person."
An "empty" mindfulness practice will allow you to stop with the label. Your mind will almost certainly try to make meaning and value, but an empty mindfulness practice allows one to see the anger, and realize that anything else that comes up is not reality, it's just a perception; a delusion.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:54 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| CET wrote: | | Buddhism isn't against labeling, in fact labeling is often necessary, especially in the Theravada tradition and a mindfulness practice. |
Heh. Tell me about it. I noticed the same thing, especially in Theravada. The three jewels, the four jhanas, the five hindrances, the six realms, the eightfold path, etc.
The Buddhism professor Malcolm David Eckel once joked that he wanted to make a quiz to see how high his students could count using Buddhist teachings!
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | | CET wrote: | | That's not a denial of dharma. |
But isn't "dharma" used to mean "moments of time/consciousness" as well as "the teaching"? |
"Dharma" is like "aloha", it means a lot of things. In it's most primitive translation, it means "teaching". It's use is to describe each nature of each characteristic of each thing, in other words, the true nature of the universe. The meaning and use of "dharma" is so complicated that many Buddhists can't even tell you exactly what it means, they rather have a sense of what it means.
| Philosophos wrote: | | CET wrote: | | My understanding is that China took so well to Buddhism because it so closely resembles it. Most of the basic Buddhist concepts are present in Taoism. Then there are the Confucianists, who only needed to grow past the narrow constraints given by Mencius and Hzun Tzu to develop Neo-Confucianism, which melded very nicely with Taoism and Buddhism to give us Ch'an, which migrated to Japan and became Zen. The point being, these traditions all arose within just a few years of each other, so closely resemble each other, and anti-dogmatic (they all teach non-attachment) that fusing and melding was not only easy, but practically inevitable. |
That's more or less my understanding of Zen development as well, although I'm not sure how much Confucian influence I see in it, perhaps beyond some familial piety. |
Confucious is all about ch'ih and li, and how they must be balanced and used in order to become human. Confucianism is especially influential in oriental countries, where hierarchy and traditional ritual are held to be supremely important. Beyond that though, it's a means of self governance where people can take care of themselves and each other without the need of police and governments. It's very down to earth and pragmatic, while the Taoists are very "head in the clouds" with their spirituality.
In the bigger picture, Confucianism and Taoism are smaller than Buddhism, and are more or less swallowed up.
| Philosophos wrote: | | CET wrote: | | If I'm not mistaken, The Heart Sutra was originally written in Pali. |
Dunno, but I think the Heart Sutra was composed after Pali fell into disuse. Wikipedia cites the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Buddhism as stating that while the Heart Sutra is known to be written in both Sanskrit and Chinese, internal evidence suggests that it was first composed in Chinese, then back-translated into Sanskrit. |
Interesting. Now I've got to spend a bunch of time I don't have on this. 
For me, most of my learning comes directly from my practice. The academics are interesting to have as a backbone, but its purpose is to strengthen my practice. I can read translations and interpretations all day, and none of that means much without my practice, it's a completely different level of understanding.
If I read about carpentry, that does not make me a skilled carpenter. Only actually working with wood makes me a skilled carpenter. Reading about carpentering and working with wood will give both acts a much deeper meaning.
I don't want to dissuade you from reading, you've got a great gift for it, I just hate to see someone read-read-read-read, and never do. Once you begin a practice, many of these strange sounding things will slowly start making sense. Before you know it, you'll be weirding people out with phrases like "Oneness".
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: The Heart Sutra Denies Karma? |
|
|
| Philosophos wrote: | | CET wrote: | | Buddhism isn't against labeling, in fact labeling is often necessary, especially in the Theravada tradition and a mindfulness practice. |
Heh. Tell me about it. I noticed the same thing, especially in Theravada. The three jewels, the four jhanas, the five hindrances, the six realms, the eightfold path, etc.
The Buddhism professor Malcolm David Eckel once joked that he wanted to make a quiz to see how high his students could count using Buddhist teachings! |
Yep, Buddhism is REAL big on its lists of things.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aupmanyav
Forum Plebian
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 297
Local time: 10:54 AM
Location: New Delhi
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
CET, I congratulate you for some good remarks you made in this topic.
_________________
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12845
Local time: 7:54 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aupmanyav wrote: | | CET, I congratulate you for some good remarks you made in this topic. |
*bows*
Namaste
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
