The First Cause

Gettin' In Tune · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: The First Cause

Do you find the first cause argument valid? I think this is the last crutch people cling to when trying to prove god. I used to find the first cause argument valid, but not anymore.

It is a presumption that there was a first cause. Hasn't the universe always existed? How could there be a cause outside of the universe? I used to find some validity in the first cause argument, but now I see it as gibberish.

Deductively it makes sense, but eventually arrives at a "creator" which brings about two speculations:
1. Infinite regress
2. An unmoved mover

I don't even find this deductive reasoning valid anymore. It is a presumption that the universe had a cause in the first place.

Wander · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject:

I find it about as valid as the assumption that there is design in order to prove the existence of a designer.
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Gettin' In Tune · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject:

Mr_C · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject:

It could be valid, but Occam's Razor says "no".
Also, it begs the question and usually leads to stealing the concept.
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transientangent · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject:

Nothing in the first cause argument save the element of design is a valid support for the conscious first cause, and that element is undermined by the results of modern science showing how complexity can arise from simplicity.
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Gettin' In Tune · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject:

I am not arguing from design or from Occam's razor. I am arguing from ignorance and curiosity. Did the universe have a cause or always existed?

howgoyoufar · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:33 am Post subject:

I don't think anyone knows that.
But if it did always exist, theists will just say god always existed too..that seems like a bad arguments without hard proof.
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Pekkle · Intern Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 72 Local time: 10:49 AM

The universe didn't always exist, unless you are defining existance in a different way than I am.

The big bang proves that the universe had a beginning does it not?

howgoyoufar · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:10 am Post subject:

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't the big bang theory still hotly debated even among scientists and physicists?
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romans120 · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 am Post subject:

baddogma · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:29 am Post subject:

kmisho · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:36 am Post subject:

The big bang itself may not be a beginning. It's like calling the north pole the beginning of the Earth.

Also, none of the laws of thermodynamics can be used to support that the universe had a beginning.
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kmisho · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 am Post subject:

aitm · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject:

I always get mildly excited when I see the words, "big bang".....reminds me of my first time with that fat chick in Tawas Michigan.
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Newman · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject:

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