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Mr_C
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 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: The Biblical Hell |
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The much-debated topic of Hell is perhaps the sickest concept that mankind has invented. So, I thought we could put together this thread to piece together "what we know" and try and figure out why and how the concept of the "place of eternal torment" came about. I'm here to learn, so please, share what you know. Please provide citations if necessary, as I would seriously like to learn something here. My hypothesis is that the concept of a place of eternal torment is basically a translation error, combined with wishful thinking from some of the sickest minds mankind has known. Either that, or the Christian God is evil.
So what the hell are the biblical roots of hell anyway?
From what I understand (Going from memory here), there are 3 words that are translated as "Hell" in the Bible. They are:
1)Hades
2)Sheol
3)Gehenna
The first two represent the domain of the dead (or the ground, basically). But the 3rd one is the one that gives preachers hard-ons. So what is that word? Where did it come from? Well, according to the authors of the NET Bible (www.bible.org):
| Quote: | | The word translated hell is “Gehenna” (γέεννα, geenna), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom (“Valley of Hinnom”). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer 7:31; 19:5-6; 32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. In the intertestamental period, it came to be used symbolically as the place of divine punishment |
This is the same "hell" of Mark 9:47, and it is the same "hell" that folks today turn into this:
Source
Also, according to This Site, The following links all describe hell:
Just look how the Bible warns of the eternity and permance of hell. I'm not sure which word (if any) is used in the verse, but if anyone has any insight on these, please feel free to share.
| Quote: |
Jesus Christ spoke more on hell than any other subject.
Just look at how Jesus described hell:
WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46
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Oh, and if anyone feels like emailing the author of that site, please paste his response! comments@av1611.org |
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Teddl2
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: Re: The Biblical Hell |
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| Mr_C wrote: |
The much-debated topic of Hell is perhaps the sickest concept that mankind has invented. So, I thought we could put together this thread to piece together "what we know" and try and figure out why and how the concept of the "place of eternal torment" came about. |
One aspect of the biblical hell is also the following quote: (It also relates to heaven.)
| Quote: | Ecclesiastes chapter 9
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. |
The idea, the concept of existing in a consciously existence after death without the ability of gaining knowledge seems to be one reason, why some people don't like the bible. *ouch*
Heaven or Hell, both would be hell for some of you because you love knowledge. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: Re: The Biblical Hell |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | The much-debated topic of Hell is perhaps the sickest concept that mankind has invented. So, I thought we could put together this thread to piece together "what we know" and try and figure out why and how the concept of the "place of eternal torment" came about. |
The idea of the people who offended you being eternally tortured is a popular meme.
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CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin
Last edited by CET on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rock
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
try and figure out why and how the concept of the "place of eternal torment" came about
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Assured revenge?
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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From:
http://www.tentmaker.org/jesusteachingonhell.html
| Quote: |
Old Testament Background of Gehenna
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico. This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell,” for as we'll see, the two words have nothing in common.
We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin. In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.” Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines. Topheth (also spelled Tophet) was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.” In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6. In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon. In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because God was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.
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If this topic interests you, do yourself a huge favor and look up the scriptures listed above!!
What does hell look like? Easy-
The Valley of Hinnom:
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Ophis
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| It comes from Zoroastrianism, as does the Christian concept of Satan. Bob Price has a video on it somewhere in the Freethought Media store. |
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rolandpibb
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: |
The Valley of Hinnom:
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Um, ah, is that rubble and plants...?
AARRRGH! The Horror!
I do believe, I do believe!
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ophis wrote: | | It comes from Zoroastrianism, as does the Christian concept of Satan. Bob Price has a video on it somewhere in the Freethought Media store. |
I have to question this. According to Wiki,
Zoroastrianism, On the afterlife:
| Quote: | | After death, the soul is allowed three days to meditate on his/her past life. If the good thoughts, words and deeds outweigh the bad, then the soul is taken into the light of Ahura Mazda. Otherwise, the soul falls into darkness. The 'darkness' is more similar to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory than the Christian doctrine of hell. |
On Eschatology:
| Quote: |
The universe will go through three eras:
1. creation;
2. the present world where creation is under attack.
3. a final state when Spenta Mainyu will dominate and Ahura Mazda prevail, all the universe will revert to its pure state and the souls trapped in darkness will be released.
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On Good vs Evil:
| Quote: | | This concept of asha versus the druj should not be confused with the good-versus-evil battle evident in western religions, for although both forms of opposition express moral conflict, the asha versus druj concept is more subtle and nuanced, representing, for instance, chaos (that opposes order); or 'uncreation', evident as natural decay (that opposes creation); or more simply 'the lie' (that opposes truth, righteousness). |
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Ophis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| You should probably ask Bob Price about it in his show on Sunday, since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Zoroastrianism. It does occur to me that the Greek idea of Tartarus could be an alternative origin. |
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Seen it before. The "recording" is way to inaudible to make out anything or check it.
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caseagainstfaith
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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The History Channel had a show, "The History of Hell", a show on various negative afterlife scenarios in various religions in history. I don't remember too much of it. But, one thing I do remember, which I think other sources disagree, but, according to THC, in Islam, Hell isn't eternal, just until you learn your lessons. Which, if true, makes Allah less bad than Jesus.
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm annoyed with the History Channel doing all the bible stuff that it is. Especially since most of what I've seen is supposition with no evidence AND IT HAS NO RELATION TO HISTORY.
OK, I'm cool now.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Mr_C, you be interested in this online radio programme.
History of Hel
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| rickyroma wrote: | Mr_C, you be interested in this online radio programme.
History of Hel |
Great! I'm downloading now! |
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BarkAtTheMoon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | I'm annoyed with the History Channel doing all the bible stuff that it is. Especially since most of what I've seen is supposition with no evidence AND IT HAS NO RELATION TO HISTORY.
OK, I'm cool now. |
That's been pissing me off, too. I used to watch it all the time when it was basically the Hitler Channel. WWII has always been my favorite subject in history. At least Discovery with Mike "neck deep in poo yet again" Rowe and TLC have stayed true to form with science shows.
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