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Missionary
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Gerard wrote: | A)Basically as Missionary describes it, the whole thing is ultimately based on a very personal experience of revelation B) that cannot be communicated in any meaningfull sense to a third party, C) and the rest eminates from there, including all the specifics of a rather unwieldy cosmology / theology. D) It's all familiar terrain really
Gerard |
A) True. Many other things are used to prepare an individual and are as unique as the individuals themselves. Even atheism and bitterness can be used to prepare a person to meet God.
B) I'm trying, but I'm only human. 
C) Actually, the evidence is overwhelming, includes everything you see and know, and is overtly apparent. Many simply choose to dismiss this evidence or explain it away.
D) So familiar in fact, it's a fact that it is familiar. Thus, there will be no excuse. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
there is no proof for god. and, in fact, as far as your particular religion goes, we have scientific, observable and testable data that directly contradicts those claims about the world, the universe and reality.
There is no evidence for god. there is plenty of evidence thats runs contra to the claims about god that people have made.
therefore, it is a reasonable conclusions that god does not exist.
I don;t care about a person's delusional 'feelings' or 'revelations'. i care about facts. care about reality. i care about proof. i care about the truth. |
I have to say I find this funny coming from someone who lives playing "virtual world games", sorry, carry on |
i find it funny that *I* can tell the difference between a game and reality and you cant.
thats why religious types have always hated D&D, i think... when D&D players talk about healing the sick and blind, curing wounds, fire-breathing dragons, demons, turning sticks into snakes, walking on water, transmuting liquids, flying and other such nonsense, we KNOW ITS NOT REAL. However, theists actually think the world is some fucked up D&D game in which magic and angels and devils really exist. scary and delusional. |
never said I hated  just found it ironic " care about reality" and all you do is play some virtual game very cute, carry on, not here to derail
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Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | Omnipotence DOES equal self-contradiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
The point being that "God cannot fail". God failed to keep Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge (or was it Prometheus that gave humans knowledge? i can never keep theist fairy tales apart). God failed to create a loyal host of angels. god failed to create a world of moral people... to the point where he had to kill everyone and basically start over. oops.
God said jesus would be back in their generation... its been 2,000 years. oops.
and, today, god wants people to believe in him... and yet secularism has been on the rise since the end of the Dark Ages.
God created an entire universe for the sole purpose of being worshiped and praised FOR creating the universe... yet, he has utterly failed to convince the people looking at the universe that it was created by any intelligent entity whatsoever.
God wants me to believe in him? i do not. god has failed yet again.
as a matter of fact, show me ONE thing that God can be proven to have SUCCEEDED at. |
Oh I didn't realize wikki made a determination on this issue I will forth with modify my views in concordance with it. ...... It commits the same fallacy that Rasko does. If nothing is more powerful then God the God is omnipotent. If nothing is more powerful then God then nothing is powerful enough to limit God's power. That is not a paradox. |
false. "omni" is not simply a king of the hill. it is 'infinite' and without limits. there is a huge difference between "the most" and "infinitely so". Warren Buffet is the richest man on Earth. does not mean he is Omni-wealthy? or infinitely rich? no. it simply means he has the most. not ALL.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Gerard wrote: | A)Basically as Missionary describes it, the whole thing is ultimately based on a very personal experience of revelation B) that cannot be communicated in any meaningfull sense to a third party, C) and the rest eminates from there, including all the specifics of a rather unwieldy cosmology / theology. D) It's all familiar terrain really
Gerard |
A) True. Many other things are used to prepare an individual and are as unique as the individuals themselves. Even atheism and bitterness can be used to prepare a person to meet God.
B) I'm trying, but I'm only human.
C) Actually, the evidence is overwhelming, includes everything you see and know, and is overtly apparent. Many simply choose to dismiss this evidence or explain it away.
D) So familiar in fact, it's a fact that it is familiar. Thus, there will be no excuse. |
you obviously have no idea what logic, reason, science or evidence are or how they work.
vaguely waving your hand in the air and saying "all of this is proof of a magical, invisible, flying man who lives in the sky" is not exactly compelling, sparky.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
there is no proof for god. and, in fact, as far as your particular religion goes, we have scientific, observable and testable data that directly contradicts those claims about the world, the universe and reality.
There is no evidence for god. there is plenty of evidence thats runs contra to the claims about god that people have made.
therefore, it is a reasonable conclusions that god does not exist.
I don;t care about a person's delusional 'feelings' or 'revelations'. i care about facts. care about reality. i care about proof. i care about the truth. |
I have to say I find this funny coming from someone who lives playing "virtual world games", sorry, carry on |
i find it funny that *I* can tell the difference between a game and reality and you cant.
thats why religious types have always hated D&D, i think... when D&D players talk about healing the sick and blind, curing wounds, fire-breathing dragons, demons, turning sticks into snakes, walking on water, transmuting liquids, flying and other such nonsense, we KNOW ITS NOT REAL. However, theists actually think the world is some fucked up D&D game in which magic and angels and devils really exist. scary and delusional. |
never said I hated just found it ironic " care about reality" and all you do is play some virtual game very cute, carry on, not here to derail |
I think everyone here can see through your pathetic and childish ad homs, Newman.
whats more pathetic, i wonder... playing a game for fun in my spare time
OR
basing my REAL life around the silly concepts of magic, miracles, deities, demons, telepathy, etc..
hmm...
once again, i know fantasy from reality, Newman. do you?
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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hmm...
once again, I know fantasy from reality, Newman. do you?[/quote]
yes I do now reality very well, live it every day to the fullest!
Childish? or simply can take back what you give? I believe its called double standards....
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Last edited by Newman on Mon May 12, 2008 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Shiranu wrote: |
Alright, I can kind of see that. However, he has lead to 9 of the things you named him self... if he hates them so much, how come he would order his chosen tribe to carry out acts that lead to those things, along with other sins? Is the world not sinful enough that he has to start throwing his own attrocities in? |
I'm suggesting that you are making an "assumption of atrocity" based upon your relative experience and understanding of human behavior which is corrupted by this cancer; not by "your personal omniscience" of God's perfect nature or His eternal plans and purpose.
In other words, your POV is limited as is your ability to perform logic and reasoning from the microscopic point of standing on earth and looking around. I'm not saying "you" to mean, "You, Shiranu, are ingnorant!" but rather in the sense that all mankind is in the same position. We have a very small view from earth.
With this in mind, if we consider for a moment that we do not have all the facts of the situation and circumstances, then it is possible and even plausible that God being "The Pure Righteous and Merciful Judge" has accurately and justifiably weighed the specific circumstance and has judged appropriately.
God's use of Israel as an instrument of His judgment is another matter. The correct use is demonstrated by Israels obedience at the Red Sea and Jericho.
At the Red Sea, Israel simply followed God through the waters which closed behind them defeating Pharoah and his armies. In Jericho, God's people followed the ark of the covenant circling the city and shouting praise to God which brought the walls down. Every other war or battle, Israel took matters into their own hands which demonstrates man's inability to depend upon God 100% for victory and deliverance. This is the essence os sin and rebellion: that man depends upon himself instead of God.
Where God instructs Israel to "slay", the proper response should have been in dependence of God's power by declaring, "Nay Lord, but Thou slayest". As a result of not learning the lesson, Israel got their butts handed to them many times and remained wandering in the desert for 40 years. In spite of this, God still Judged Accurately, Fairly, and with Mercy for each individual person that was affected. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | hmm...
once again, i know fantasy from reality, Newman. do you? |
yes I do..
Childish? or simply can take back what you give? I believe its called double standards.... |
Where is the double standard?
i play a game that i know is not real.
YOU actually believe in magic, gods, other planes of existence, miracles, etc. as being REAL.
they are not equal at all. in fact, they are opposites.
you are delusional. i am not.
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Shiranu wrote: |
So, basically, we have no free will. Yes, we can try to do something contrary to his plan, but it will fail. Every thing will happen, exactly as he wants it to, despite any attempts to change it by mortals. You may consider that free will, but I dont, and really dont know how you can believe we have choice. Sure, you might get a superfical "Oh, I went left instead of right!" feeling, but you still wound up at the exact same location... once agian, how boring!  |
Oh no, you have free will alright. That's not to imply that your will supersedes or outperforms God's will. Otherwise, he would be impotent; not omnipotent. In fact, if you had the power and ability to prevail your will, that's precisely the argument that would prove the non-existence of an omnipotent God. Therefore all of mankind has a temporary window of time to exercise his free will. This free will is limited to the extent that man is free to make his eternal choice while at the same time preventing him from destroying the earth entirely and all of it's inhabitants. That is probably more limited to the power available to man. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Shiranu wrote: |
So, basically, we have no free will. Yes, we can try to do something contrary to his plan, but it will fail. Every thing will happen, exactly as he wants it to, despite any attempts to change it by mortals. You may consider that free will, but I dont, and really dont know how you can believe we have choice. Sure, you might get a superfical "Oh, I went left instead of right!" feeling, but you still wound up at the exact same location... once agian, how boring! |
Oh no, you have free will alright. That's not to imply that your will supersedes or outperforms God's will. Otherwise, he would be impotent; not omnipotent. In fact, if you had the power and ability to prevail your will, that's precisely the argument that would prove the non-existence of an omnipotent God. Therefore all of mankind has a temporary window of time to exercise his free will. This free will is limited to the extent that man is free to make his eternal choice while at the same time preventing him from destroying the earth entirely and all of it's inhabitants. That is probably more limited to the power available to man. |
god wants me to believe in him. god cannot fail. god always gets what he wants.
BUT, i do not believe in him. therefore, god is NOT all-powerful.
or.. of course, the entire conversation is moot, because there is no deity.
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Shiranu wrote: |
How come Lot was given these two angels, I might ask? When a riot comes to his door, he tells them, "Dont hurt my guest, but here is my daughter, do what you want with her, and know her!"... I hardly find this appropriate of God's apointed survior of Sodom and Gamora, and as Dawkin points out, a great example of man's play in writing the Bible (Which, I beleive its 100% man, but either way...), as men of this time basically thought that women were nothing but possesions (and even today we see that in Islamic culture)... wouldn't a truely godly man be beyond this? |
Lot was not a Godly man, he was a relative of Abraham (See Gen 13:12). The account contrasts the difference between Abraham (The man of God) and Lot (The man of the World-"pitched his tent toward Sodom"). Lot's decision was self-centered to save his skin. He lost not only offered up the loss of his daughter, but indeed suffered the loss of his wife who could have given him another daughter. Lot may even have considered this when he made his offer at the door. "No problem, my wife will produce another". |
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Zocrates
I rank, therefore I am
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | Mr. Missionary.....
Is there any way you can know that the voices you hear isn't a delusion? Hoe do you know you're not crazy? After all, crazy people talk to themselves and claim to hear people talking to them. How are you to be trusted as non-looney? How can we separate you from the crazies?
Are we just supposed to trust your word? |
No, in fact it's imperative that you refuse to trust me. Likewise the priest, the preacher, the church, the university, the scientist, the science, the institution of man or the man of institution.
Trust God alone. |
???
I don't think there is anyone alive today that didn't "come to god" without someone else convincing them that god exists. That said, how do you explain the billions of people alive today that either don't believe in god at all, or believe in a different god than the one you trust in? You claim that god will come to you at some point....well how come he hasn't revealed himself to these people?
And I hope your excuse has nothing to do with the devil placing a veil over our eyes or that god HAS revealed himself to us and we rejected him because those are the fattest, most absurd cop outs I've heard. Any new explanations?
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EvilEggCracker
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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The whole "everything around you is proof!" is false because I in fact made the universe.
Your move, Missionary.
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| EvilEggCracker wrote: | The whole "everything around you is proof!" is false because I in fact made the universe.
Your move, Missionary. |
whenever someone says the "everything around you is proof!" line, i always think of algebra class... "show. your. work."
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Shotgun objections are a matter of tactic rather than civil debate. I'm delighted to engage the topics that are most important to you in as orderly and concise a manner as possible for the sake of fluid discussion.
| Moloth wrote: | Omnipotence DOES equal self-contradiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
The point being that "God cannot fail". God failed to keep Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge (or was it Prometheus that gave humans knowledge? i can never keep theist fairy tales apart). God failed to create a loyal host of angels. god failed to create a world of moral people... to the point where he had to kill everyone and basically start over. oops.
God said jesus would be back in their generation... its been 2,000 years. oops.
and, today, god wants people to believe in him... and yet secularism has been on the rise since the end of the Dark Ages.
God created an entire universe for the sole purpose of being worshiped and praised FOR creating the universe... yet, he has utterly failed to convince the people looking at the universe that it was created by any intelligent entity whatsoever.
God wants me to believe in him? i do not. god has failed yet again.
as a matter of fact, show me ONE thing that God can be proven to have SUCCEEDED at. |
While your objections appear on the surface to be supporting evidence of failure they are actually conclusions you and others have drawn from a misapplication of terms and concepts that are limited by a proper reading in context and associated hermeneutical interpretation of the the text. Therefore each individual exhibit of evidence you've presented must be forensically investigated on it's own.
I will however address your primary objection of, "Omnipotence DOES equal self-contradiction" and linked to the Wiki -paradox.
I will simply state that omnipotence by definition is, 'to possess all power'. It is a logical fallacy to argue that all power can either fail or trump itself by the very fact that all power is possessed. Therefore there is not one single atom of measurable room within "all power" to fail nor without "all power" to trump itself. |
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