Missionary
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Eyedunno wrote: |
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies. |
That was satan's argument:
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. |
1) Not Satan. It's a serpent, it's never referred to as anything but a serpent, and the Kipling-esque condemnation by God further reinforces the fact that it's a snake.
2) The whole concept of Satan as we know it is a Christian invention. The Satan in Job is one of the sons of God (often thought of as an angel to Christians who get antsy about competition with their Number One Son, even if the original Hebrew says sons of God), and it's clear that he's acting in accord with God and God's plans, even if he doubts Job's virtue. Satan means "accuser" or "adversary" in the original Hebrew, and there's no hint that it's a name, much less a demon's name - it's more likely closer to a title or manner of distinguishing this particular son.
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Well, let's take a look at it.
The English word translated as serpent is transliterated from the Hebrew:
| Quote: | Hebrew Strong's Number: 5175
Hebrew Word: נָחָשׁ
Transliteration: nāḥāsh
Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-khawsh'
Root: from <H5172>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 1347a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: None
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
serpent 31
[Total Count: 31]
from <H5172> (nachash); a snake (from its hiss) :- serpent.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary |
While it indeed is used to describe a serpent creature it also has other meanings including figurative:
| Quote: | 1347 נחשׁ (nḥsh) I. Assumed root of the following.
1347a †נָחָשׁ (nāḥāsh) <H5175> serpent, snake.
1347b נְחֻשְׁתָּן (neḥūshtān) <H5180> Nehushtan.
nāḥāsh. Serpent, snake. This is the most common word for "snake." It is found thirty times in the OT, distributed from Genesis through the minor prophets. It is also known from the Ugaritic nḥš.
The first five occurrences of nāḥāsh are in Genesis 3 (Genesis 3:1, 2, 4, 13, 14) and of course refer to the creature that tempted Eve to disobey God. Paul alludes to this incident in 2 Cor. 11:3 and John in Rev. 12:9ff. In all instances, including the LXX translation, the Greek word is ophis.
Opinions differ as to whether this was a satan-inspired snake or a name for satan himself (J. O. Buswell, Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, I, Zondervan, 1962, pp. 264-65). Only naturalistic theology could hold that it was a mere snake referred to in myth or legend.
nāḥāsh occurs in Exodus 4:3; Exodus 7:15, in connection with Moses' rod turning to a "serpent. During the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites the Lord sent fiery serpents." Numbers 21:6, 7, 9; Deut. 8:15, and 2 Kings 18:4 refer both to the plague and the bronze "serpent" neḥūshtān which Moses made. Normally the "serpent" is something evil. But anyone poisoned with venom could, by looking at the bronze "serpent," be healed. Jesus alluded to this episode in John 3:14. As the object of faith resembled the curse in the case of the "snakes," so Jesus resembled the cursed in that he took the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of man (Phil. 2:7). There are at least two more noteworthy features of this account of Moses' bronze "snake." First, the word nāḥāsh is almost identical to the word for bronze" or "copper," Hebrew neḥōshet (q.v.). Some scholars think the words are related because of a common color of snakes (cf. our "copperhead"), but others think that they are only coincidentally similar. From 2 Kings 18:4 we can assume that the bronze "serpent" became a relic a religious fetish, and that the people of God acting like ordinary men, wanted to worship it. The name given it was "Nehushtan," which may refer to the words nāḥāsh (snake) and/or neḥōshet (brass).
Both Jeremiah and Amos may be alluding to this desert incident when they threaten punishment in the form of "serpents" (Jeremiah 8:17; Amos 5:19; Amos 9:3). Isaiah and Micah may have Genesis 3:14 in mind when they speak of licking the dust like a "serpent" (Isaiah 65:25; Micah 7:17).
Both Job and Isaiah mention the leviathan (q.v.) or dragon or crooked "serpent" in connection with God's power (Job 26:13; Isaiah 27:1).
Other characteristics of "snakes" receive mention. Genesis 49:17 seems to refer to a serpent's stealth; Psalm 58:4; Psalm 140:3 [H 4]; Proverbs 23:32 Eccles. 10:8, 11, Jeremiah 8:17; Amos 5:19; and Amos 9:3 to the poisonous bite; Proverbs 30:19 to their climbing ability on a smooth surface; and Jeremiah 46:22 to the hissing sound they make.
Three passages (Psalm 54:4-5; Eccles. 10:11; Jeremiah 8:17) may refer to "snake" charming. Again, the word nāḥāsh is similar to the word laḥash (enchantment or divination) in those passages (cf. nāḥash).
Three or four people and one city have names derived from this root: Nahash, the king of Ammon (1 Samuel 11:1, et al.); Nahash, the father of Abigail and Zeruiah (2 Samuel 17:25); Nahshon, the son of Aminadab and brother-in-law of Aaron (Exodus 6:23 et al.); Nehushta, the mother of king Jehoiakin (2 Kings 24: ; and the city of Nahash (Ir-nahash in most translations, 1 Chron. 4:12). Since there are several identical roots, these names may not necessarily mean "snake" but perhaps "diviner" (naḥash) or "copper" (neḥōshet).
Bibliography: TDNT, V, pp. 571-79.
— Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament |
Here the word serpent is used figuratively such as in Genesis 3, Genesis 49, Isaiah 14
| Quote: | Genesis 49:16-17 (KJV)
16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Isaiah 14:28-29 (KJV)
28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
Jeremiah 46 refers directly to this figurative speech as having a voice:
Jeremiah 46:22 (KJV)
22 The voice thereof shall go like a serpent; for they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as hewers of wood. |
Notice the root word in Hebrew:
| Quote: | Hebrew Strong's Number: 5172
Hebrew Word: נָחַשׁ
Transliteration: nāḥash
Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-khash'
Root: a primitive root
Cross Reference: TWOT - 1348
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: None
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
enchantment 4
divine 2
enchanter 1
indeed 1
certainly 1
learn by experience 1
diligently observe 1
[Total Count: 11]
a primitive root; properly to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate :- × certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) × enchantment, learn by experience, × indeed, diligently observe.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary |
Notice that this root word is used in reference to divination, omen, enchanters, and sorcery:
| Quote: | 1348 נָחַשׁ (nāḥash) <H5172> II, learn by experience, diligently observe, divine, practice divination or fortunetelling, take as an omen.
Derivative
1348a †נַחַשׁ (naḥash) <H5173> divination.
The verb nāḥash is found only in the intensive stem (Piel) and is definitely related to the noun naḥash meaning "divination" or "enchantment."
The first occurrence of nāḥash is in Genesis 30:27, where Laban "learned from the omens" (JB) that Jacob's presence meant his blessing.
Both in Genesis 44:5, 15 the doubly intensive form (infinitive absolute plus finite verb) occurs. There we learn that Joseph claimed for his brothers' benefit that he could "divine" with a special cup and so knew secret things such as that his brothers, still unaware of who he was, had his cup in their possession. According to 1 Kings 20:33, the servants of Benhadad "took as an omen" Ahab's use of the word "brother" in reference to their king.
But divination is outlawed in Leviticus 19:26 and is spoken of with condemnation in 2 Kings 17:17 and 2 Kings 21:6 (cf. 2 Chron. 33:6). It is in the list of forbidden occult practices of Deut. 18:10.
naḥash. Divination, enchantment, omen, sorcery (Berkeley Version) augury (JPS). The noun naḥash is obviously related to the cognate verb nāḥash II. Numbers 23:23 has the word in the singular, parallel to qesem (q.v.), indicating some variety of the occult. Numbers 24:1, also part of the Balaam passages, has the only other occurrence of naḥash. Because of the similarity of naḥash to nāḥāsh (q.v.) meaning "snake," some make a connection to snakecharming. More contend that there is a similarity of hissing sounds between enchanters and serpents and hence the similarity of words.
Bibliography: Liefeld, W. L., "Divination," in ZPEB, II, pp. 146-49. Summers, Montague, The History of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York: University Books, 1956.
— Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament |
Satan is a transliterated word to English.
The Hebrew:
| Quote: | Hebrew Strong's Number: 7854
Hebrew Word: שָׂטָן
Transliteration: śāṭān
Phonetic Pronunciation:saw-tawn'
Root: from <H7853>, Greek <G4566>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2252a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Satan
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
Satan 19
adversary 7
withstand 1
[Total Count: 27]
from <H7853> (satan); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good :- adversary, Satan, withstand.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary |
The Root Word:
| Quote: | Hebrew Word: שָׂטַן
Transliteration: śāṭan
Phonetic Pronunciation:saw-tan'
Root: a primitive root
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2252
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: None
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
adversary 5
resist 1
[Total Count: 6]
a primitive root; to attack, (figurative) accuse :- (be an) adversary, resist.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary |
The Cross Reference to Theological Wordbook Of The Old Testament for the root.
| Quote: | 2252 שָׂטַן (śaṭan) <H7853> be an adversary, resist. ASV consistently renders the former, while RSV translates "accuse." Denominative verb.
Parent Noun
2252a שָׂטָן (śāṭān) <H7854> adversary, one who withstands.
2252b שִׂטְנָה (śiṭnâ) <H7855> enmity, accusation.
The verb śāṭan occurs six times in the OT often in participial forms for one who bears a grudge or cherishes animosity.
David employed this verb to describe his adversaries (Psalm 38:20; Psalm 109:4) who were rendering him evil for good. He prayed for their overthrow (Psalm 109:20, 29; cf. Psalm 71:13). It also represents in the noun form (Satan, KJV, NASB, NIV) a judicial accusing (Zech. 3:1). Correspondingly the noun śiṭnâ describes a written accusation (Ezra 4:6); it had earlier served as a name, Sitnah, "enmity," for a well over which men quarrelled (Genesis 26:21).
śāṭān. Adversary, one who withstands, Satan. The nominal form śāṭān identifies Solomon's adversaries (1 Kings 11:14, 23, 25; cf. 5:4; 1 Samuel 29:4). David spoke of his vengeful officer Abishai as a śāṭān (2 Samuel 19:22 [H 23]). Indeed, the pre-incarnate Christ, or Angel of Yahweh might be described or even identify himself as a śāṭān, when opposing Balaam (Numbers 22:22, 32).
Throughout history mankind's preeminent opponent has been Satan, "that old serpent" (Rev. 12:9). He is a mighty angel (cf. his appearance with other "sons of God" in Job 1:6; Jude 9). [Whether Satan was also a cherub depends on one's interpretation of Ezekiel 28:12-16. These verses condemn the king of Tyre, but go beyond him by comparing him to a figure of perfection who was in Eden, who was created holy and later fell. The figures of both Adam and Satan have been proposed for the person intended.
Three lines of evidence support the identification of this king with Satan: 1) Ezekiel may have intended to contrast the prince of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:1-10) with the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:11-19). Whereas the prince is a man aspiring to deity and heaven, the king is a heavenly being cast out of heaven. 2) The god of Tyre at this time is malkart, meaning "king of the city," so that would be the king of Tyre. 3) The apostle Paul identifies Satan's sin with pride (1 Tim. 3:6), the sin of this king (1 Tim. 3:7). This may be the only passage in the OT from which he could have derived this truth.
Satan may be conceived as addressed through the Tyrian, even as Christ rebuked that evil angel through Peter (Matthew 16:23). Further, if "Eden, the garden of God" (Ezekiel 28:13) refers to a heavenly garden, inhabited by angels (note how the phrases, "mountain of God" and "stones of fire" Ezekiel 28:14 do not well fit the earthly Eden), then it could be Satan who is here addressed as an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14) or an overshadowing cherub (cf. mimshaḥ), which is inapplicable to Adam.
On the other hand, if this Eden is the earthly one of Genesis 2-3, and the mountain" and "stones" refer to the pretensions of the pagan king seated in his temple at Tyre, deluded by his commercial success (cf. Ezekiel 28:16), then the monarch's fall could be compared with Adam's. This assumes that ’att (Ezekiel 28:14) be read as ’et "with" (rather than "you". "With an anointed cherub I placed you." kerûb (Ezekiel 28:16) would be read as the subject of the verb repointing wā’abbedkā to we’ibbadkā (3 m.s. perf. for 1 common s. impf.), thus reading "the cherub drove you out," as in RSV (cf. JBL 75:326-27). r.l.h.]
Satan's career exhibits four stages of progressive failure.
(1) Satan fell into condemnation through a pride that induced him to rival God (1 Tim. 3:6 and perhaps Isaiah 14:12-15, if the king of Babylon is there a tool of Satan, something more than "hêlēl (q.v.) son of dawn." The Latin translation, lucifer, refers to the planet Venus, the morning star; see Rev. 9:1). The NT identifies Satan as the tempting power behind Adam's fall (Genesis 3:15 in Romans 16:20). The OT makes no direct reference to this fact (citing "the serpent"), though Satan's own fall may well have occurred with this same temptation (cf. creation's unimpaired goodness in Genesis 1:31). Yet despite his loss of status, the "devil" (Gr. diabolos "slanderer") continued to exercise power on earth and to have access to heaven as haśśāṭān "the accuser" (Job 1:9; Job 2:4; Zech. 3:1), or simply "the spirit" (1 Kings 22:19-22). Only in Ezra's (?) post-exilic composition does śāṭān appear as a proper noun, Satan (1 Chron. 21:1). Negative critics thus restrict haśśāṭān to the role of a "prosecuting attorney" who became evil only under later Persian concepts of dualism (M. Burrows, Outline of Biblical Theology, p. 125). Yet the testimony of the entire OT makes clear his consistent hostility toward God and animosity toward man (Job 1:11; Job 2:3-5).
(2) With the crucifixion and ascension of Christ, Satan was cast from heaven, no more to accuse the brethren (John 12:31; Rev. 12:10), though he is still "the prince of the power of the [terrestrial] air" (Ephes. 2:2). (3) Isaiah predicted a time when Yahweh would punish the satanic hosts, as well as the evil kings of earth, by confining them in prison (Isaiah 24:21-22; cf. Rev. 20:1 on Satan's millennial binding).
(4) Then "after many days they will be punished" (Isaiah 24:22 NASB), words which point to the final judgment and Satan's eternal torment in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10).
Bibliography: Kluger, Rivkah S., Satan in the OT, Northwestern University, 1967. Payne, J. B., Theology of the Older Testament, Zondervan, 1971, pp. 291-95. Hiebert, D. E., "Satan," in ZPEB, V, pp. 282-86.
— Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament |
The New Testament Greek word translated into the English as devil
| Quote: | Greek Strong's Number: 1228
Greek Word: διάβολος
Transliteration: diabolos
Phonetic Pronunciation:dee-ab'-ol-os
Root: from <G1225>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:72,150
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Accuser, Devil, Devlish, Slandered
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
devil 35
false accuser 2
slanderer 1
[Total Count: 38]
from <G1225> (diaballo); a traducer; specially Satan [compare <H7854> (satan)] :- false accuser, devil, slanderer.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryGreek Strong's Number: 1228
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And also in the NT Greek; Satan:
| Quote: | Greek Strong's Number: 4567
Greek Word: Σατανᾶς
Transliteration: Satanas
Phonetic Pronunciation:sat-an-as'
Root: of Aramaic origin corresponding to <G4566> (with the definite affix)
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:151,1007
Part of Speech: n pr m
Vine's Words: Satan
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
Satan 36
[Total Count: 36]
of Chaldee origin corresponding to <G4566> (Satan) (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil :- Satan.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary |
Which is used in passages such as:
| Quote: | 2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV)
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
In this passage, serpent, devil, and Satan are used together to describe one single person: |
| Quote: | Revelation 12:8-9 (KJV)
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. |
I could also bring in exegetical commentary spanning 1800 years to confirm these findings. However for the sake of space I can just tell you that they say, "The serpent in Genesis was Satan."
| Eyedunno wrote: | | 3) The serpent was right - "Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22). |
Notice the term switching and implication:
| Quote: | Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. |
Satan knew the fruit and the result of eating it. His definition switch of 'die' to Eve was from spiritual to physical. He knew she wouldn't physically drop dead. Second is the indictment against God of keeping something beneficial from them when was in fact it was spiritually deadly and eventually would end in physical death. More importantly to Satan was dominion. Adam had been given right and entitlement to reign in dominion over the earth. Satan used the woman to get to the man and won dominion over the earth by default of Adam's loss. While Satan's wording is technically correct, he was calling into question the meaning and implications as Eve understood them and essentially called God a liar.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Quote: | | Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god, |
Not at all, "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Adam is not "a kind of god" but has knowledge of good and evil just as God has knowledge of good and evil. The "sin" was the act of disobedience. The knowledge of good and evil was moral awareness. Separation from God (spiritual death) is the result of sin and man remains in that condition unless ha is spiritually reborn. |
It boggles the mind that you could read this and not get anxiety on God's part out of the text. I can't wait to hear you squirm around Genesis 11. "And the Lord said, ‘Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.'"
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Anxiety? As in God is sitting on the Throne wringing His hands worrying if mankind will build a rocket and come beat Him up? God's move at Babel is YET ANOTHER example of His mercy and patience. His desire is repentance, atonement, and forgiveness in that order. He could have killed them all and be perfectly justified by His moral nature but instead confused the languages and spread them out to give man further time to repent.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | Furthermore, there's the other paradox that without the knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam have known that disobedience was a problem? It seems God set him up for failure, and this is even more the case with the modern Christian concept of the Omnimax god. |
The knowledge of good and evil is not necessary to obey God by faith. Free will exists regardless and in absence of that knowledge. There was a commandment given and a punishment described for disobedience. By free will Adam disobeyed and suffered the punishment warned. God never intended for us to live by moral choices (knowledge of good and evil) but by the free will choice of faith in God's Word.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Quote: | | but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree. |
It doesn't imply that at all. It said, "...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." God simply did not want man to remain in this condition of sin forever. Therefore God separated them from the Tree of Life which left them to a physical death outside of Eden. He then atoned for the sin Himself by a substitute sacrifice and clothed them with the skin. |
You've again stuffed your external context into it. Nobody just reading the text would ever come to that conclusion, or at least not without being convinced beforehand that it's divinely inspired. |
If you found Genesis 3 on a scrap of paper and never knew anything about God or the bible? You would be correct. However, the references to the Gen 3 event sprinkled throughout scripture expound on the event to unfold a more complete picture of not only what happened but also what was meant.
Notice the references:
Job 31:33 (KJV)
33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Hosea 6:7 (NASB95)
7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Romans 5:14 (NASB95)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NASB95)
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Notice that Adam's transgressions were covered (sin atoned for by substitute death) and Adam was literally clothed in that skin. In Hosea Adam is said to have broken a covenant. In Romans Paul says Adam died as a result of sin and in 1 Cor, physical death. |
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