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Philosophos
The owls are not what they seem
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: Role Reversal: Philo v. Romans Debate Thread |
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This is the official one-on-one debate thread for myself versus romans120. I am an atheist, while romans is a theist. The purpose of this debate is to reverse roles: I will be presenting theistic arguments one at a time. Romans will rebut, and we will have a brief informal discussion defending our stances before moving on to the next argument. This is intended to be very informal.
My goal is to present 7 arguments for theism one at a time with increasing sophistication. Both of us have agreed to keep the discussion fairly short, and both reserve the right to call off the debate if it gets tedious, isn't working out, or we run short on time.
The peanut gallery is here, and the proposal thread for this discussion is here.
No one but myself and romans120 may post in this thread. Your response will be split to the peanut gallery if you do. Repeat offenders may be subject to a ban.
I will post the first theistic argument, then romans will begin responding.
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Philosophos
The owls are not what they seem
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Argument #1: I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist
There is no such thing as an atheist. Sure, I've met those who profess to be. But there's a problem with their stance.
When I meet an atheist, the first thing I ask them is "how many stars are there in the universe?" They don't know. Then I ask them "how many hairs do you have on your head right now?" They don't know that either. In fact, they don't know a whole lot. Not that I'm saying Christians do, either. Humanity is an ignorant bunch. Very ignorant.
The typical person does not even understand the intricacies of the man-made world around them! As the saying goes: "no one knows how to build a car!" There's not a single person on the planet who, if you put him in the middle of the woods, could whip out a Prius - even if you give them all the time in the world. So, not a single person even understands what his fellow man does in total - nevermind all the wonders of nature!
Out of everything there is to know in the universe, how much do we actually know? One tenth of one percent? One one-thousandth? Heh. That's probably another thing that the atheist doesn't know.
So, given such a paucity of knowledge, how can the atheist say that "there is no God"? That's a tough one: this statement is known as a universal negative. And this is what the atheist holds to be true. But with such a lack of knowledge about the world, how can the atheist say this with a straight face?
Let's take a simpler example of a universal negative: "there is no gold in China". What would a person have to know in order to know this to be true? The person would have to know for a fact that there's no gold in any mountain, any river, under any rock, in anyone's pocket, or anywhere within that vast land! They'd need to know China inside and out: and if there is even a speck hidden from them, their universal negative statement would be wrong. This is simply too much to know for any person. For a person to say "there is no gold in China", they'd have to take such a statement on faith.
And it's the same thing for the atheist. The atheist needs faith to say "there is no God", for he has vastly limited knowledge about how the universe works. A more honest statement would be: "given my extremely limited knowledge, I believe there's no God." And since the atheist can't know there's no God, he would have to take his statement on faith.
So the atheist doesn't know that God doesn't exist: he just believes it. The proper term for someone who doesn't know is not "atheist", but "agnostic". This is why atheists don't exists: there's simply know way to know that there is no God.
So why, with such ignorance, does the atheist claim that there's no God? The Bible tells us the answer. Psalms 10:4 states "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God." In other words, it's pride that keeps the atheist shadowed in his ignorance, even though Romans 1:20 tells us that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
So, we have seen that there is no such thing as an atheist. Those who claim to be such take their stance and flaunt their own faith in "reason", going so far as to claim knowledge of a universal negative. The atheist knows in his heart that there is a God. But, out of pride, he denies Him.
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romans120
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Philosophos"]Argument #1: I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist
| Quote: |
There is no such thing as an atheist. Sure, I've met those who profess to be. But there's a problem with their stance.
When I meet an atheist, the first thing I ask them is "how many stars are there in the universe?" They don't know. Then I ask them "how many hairs do you have on your head right now?" They don't know that either. In fact, they don't know a whole lot. Not that I'm saying Christians do, either. Humanity is an ignorant bunch. Very ignorant.
The typical person does not even understand the intricacies of the man-made world around them! As the saying goes: "no one knows how to build a car!" There's not a single person on the planet who, if you put him in the middle of the woods, could whip out a Prius - even if you give them all the time in the world. So, not a single person even understands what his fellow man does in total - nevermind all the wonders of nature!
Out of everything there is to know in the universe, how much do we actually know? One tenth of one percent? One one-thousandth? Heh. That's probably another thing that the atheist doesn't know.
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Limited knowledge and a negative belief are the same thing. (they compliment each other) If my knowledge is limited the things I lack knowledge of I obviously do not believe in them because I have no concept of their existence. However, limited knowledge and a positive belief are not the same thing. (they contradict each other) If man knowledge is limited how can he know something exists that is beyond his comprehension and ability to learn.
| Quote: | So, given such a paucity of knowledge, how can the atheist say that "there is no God"? That's a tough one: this statement is known as a universal negative. And this is what the atheist holds to be true. But with such a lack of knowledge about the world, how can the atheist say this with a straight face?
Let's take a simpler example of a universal negative: "there is no gold in China". What would a person have to know in order to know this to be true? The person would have to know for a fact that there's no gold in any mountain, any river, under any rock, in anyone's pocket, or anywhere within that vast land! They'd need to know China inside and out: and if there is even a speck hidden from them, their universal negative statement would be wrong. This is simply too much to know for any person. For a person to say "there is no gold in China", they'd have to take such a statement on faith.
And it's the same thing for the atheist. The atheist needs faith to say "there is no God", for he has vastly limited knowledge about how the universe works. A more honest statement would be: "given my extremely limited knowledge, I believe there's no God." And since the atheist can't know there's no God, he would have to take his statement on faith. |
The problem with the "universal negative" is it can apply to so many absurd things. In other words we universally can not know that there are no microscopic pink unicorns that grant wishes. That does not mean we must believe they exist it means before we can have knowledge or belief of pink unicorns we must observe evidence they exist.
| Quote: | So the atheist doesn't know that God doesn't exist: he just believes it. The proper term for someone who doesn't know is not "atheist", but "agnostic". This is why atheists don't exists: there's simply know way to know that there is no God.
So why, with such ignorance, does the atheist claim that there's no God? The Bible tells us the answer. Psalms 10:4 states "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God." In other words, it's pride that keeps the atheist shadowed in his ignorance, even though Romans 1:20 tells us that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
So, we have seen that there is no such thing as an atheist. Those who claim to be such take their stance and flaunt their own faith in "reason", going so far as to claim knowledge of a universal negative. The atheist knows in his heart that there is a God. But, out of pride, he denies Him. |
I can not find it within myself on this one. I think you knew this is what would make me choke. lets see If I can spit it out in the third person. The atheist would respond with what evidence do you have outside of your book? If your book stands alone apart from anything else what claim does it have on truth? *shudders*
In conclusion, the atheist fully admits his lack of knowledge like everybody else, the atheist does not claim they are the source of truth either. The atheist simply limits what they believe to what they know. Truth must be tangible.
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Philosophos
The owls are not what they seem
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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Local time: 7:09 AM
Location: The Black Lodge
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: |
Limited knowledge and a negative belief are the same thing. (they compliment each other) If my knowledge is limited the things I lack knowledge of I obviously do not believe in them because I have no concept of their existence. |
But you do have a concept of God's existence. Firstly, you know what I'm talking about when I say the word "God". Secondly, Romans 1:19-20 tells us that all men know of his existence. This is further evidenced by the very existence of this forum. Why is it that so many people hang around here discussing what they don't believe in? The answer's clear: it hurts you to "kick against the goads" (Acts 26:14), and so you seek the comfort of others to justify your self-imposed ignorance.
| Quote: | | However, limited knowledge and a positive belief are not the same thing. (they contradict each other) If man knowledge is limited how can he know something exists that is beyond his comprehension and ability to learn. |
Let's take a complex topic: say, tensor analysis. Many would say that this is "beyond [their] comprehension and ability to learn." But yet tensor analysis exists! What about the human brain? What a marvelous design! Do we understand every facet of the brain? No. But we know it exists.
It's the same with God: one need not know every facet of something to know that it exists.
| Quote: | | The problem with the "universal negative" is it can apply to so many absurd things. In other words we universally can not know that there are no microscopic pink unicorns that grant wishes. That does not mean we must believe they exist it means before we can have knowledge or belief of pink unicorns we must observe evidence they exist. |
But that's not my argument. For I do not state absolutely that there are no microscopic pink unicorns that grant wishes. I'm agnostic about it - as you should be about God.
Going to the "gold in China" example: if you find a speck of gold under a rock in Beijing, you know there is gold in China. However, to state that "there is no gold in China", you'd have to know an awful lot! What great faith you must have to make such an absurd, universally negative statement!
Being an atheist is like saying "there's no gold in China", when the only place one's checked is the top dresser drawer of one old woman in Shanghai.
| Quote: | | I can not find it within myself on this one. I think you knew this is what would make me choke. |
Heh. This is supposed to be the easy stuff! I think I may have a convert...
| Quote: | | lets see If I can spit it out in the third person. The atheist would respond with what evidence do you have outside of your book? If your book stands alone apart from anything else what claim does it have on truth? *shudders* |
We'll get to that later...
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romans120
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: |
Limited knowledge and a negative belief are the same thing. (they compliment each other) If my knowledge is limited the things I lack knowledge of I obviously do not believe in them because I have no concept of their existence. |
[quote="Philosophos"]
| Quote: | | But you do have a concept of God's existence. Firstly, you know what I'm talking about when I say the word "God". Secondly, Romans 1:19-20 tells us that all men know of his existence. This is further evidenced by the very existence of this forum. Why is it that so many people hang around here discussing what they don't believe in? The answer's clear: it hurts you to "kick against the goads" (Acts 26:14), and so you seek the comfort of others to justify your self-imposed ignorance. |
A concept is not a proof of existence. You can understand the concept of "microscopic pink wish granting unicorns" but that doesn't mean they pop into existence as they are conceptualized. The concept of a Christian God would not exist were it not for the Bible conceptualizing it. Secondarily there are so many gods that exist out there is concepts so if that is evidence we have a rather rich menu for which god we would like to worship. Furthermore the reason this forum exists is because the culture where we live is permeated with Christianity.
[quote="romans120"]
| Quote: | | However, limited knowledge and a positive belief are not the same thing. (they contradict each other) If man knowledge is limited how can he know something exists that is beyond his comprehension and ability to learn. |
[quote="Philosophos"]
| Quote: | Let's take a complex topic: say, tensor analysis. Many would say that this is "beyond [their] comprehension and ability to learn." But yet tensor analysis exists! What about the human brain? What a marvelous design! Do we understand every facet of the brain? No. But we know it exists.
It's the same with God: one need not know every facet of something to know that it exists. |
Sure we can comprehend tensor analysis see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor if it has a wiki article it can be understood so your strawman won't work here. Same with the human brain we do not know every facet but we know a percentage of the amount of potential knowledge of the brain. But God is different He does not exist in our space, He can not be Measured, He can't be quantified, we have 0 knowledge about God's make up and composition.
[quote="romans120"]
| Quote: | | The problem with the "universal negative" is it can apply to so many absurd things. In other words we universally can not know that there are no microscopic pink unicorns that grant wishes. That does not mean we must believe they exist it means before we can have knowledge or belief of pink unicorns we must observe evidence they exist. |
[quote="Philosophos"]
| Quote: | But that's not my argument. For I do not state absolutely that there are no microscopic pink unicorns that grant wishes. I'm agnostic about it - as you should be about God.
Going to the "gold in China" example: if you find a speck of gold under a rock in Beijing, you know there is gold in China. However, to state that "there is no gold in China", you'd have to know an awful lot! What great faith you must have to make such an absurd, universally negative statement!
Being an atheist is like saying "there's no gold in China", when the only place one's checked is the top dresser drawer of one old woman in Shanghai.
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Your getting things backwards. The statement "their is no gold in China" still stands as accurate until gold is discovered in china. In other words the burden of proofTM is always on the one making the claim.
[quote="romans120"]
| Quote: | | lets see If I can spit it out in the third person. The atheist would respond with what evidence do you have outside of your book? If your book stands alone apart from anything else what claim does it have on truth? *shudders* |
[quote="Philosophos"]
| Quote: |
We'll get to that later... |
End of Argument 1 "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist"
I thought it might be beneficial for at the end of these arguments if I just briefly stated how valid I think the particular Christian argument is. While do not like how this one is titled, because it imply's it takes more "faith" to be atheist than theist. Since faith is the "evidence of things not seen or (tangible)" That is essentially saying that theism is based on something more tangible than atheism. (which is absurd) However, I do feel atheism is a "faith" based ideology see http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-635-0.html for my reasons. Both equally make conclusion based on an unknown priori which makes them each depend on faith.
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Philosophos
The owls are not what they seem
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 8816
Local time: 7:09 AM
Location: The Black Lodge
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | End of Argument 1 "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" |
Argument 2 of 7 will be up shortly.
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Philosophos
The owls are not what they seem
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Argument #2: The Argument From Miracles
Stacy James was an active college junior. In addition to her myriad activities, including running, dancing, and music, she spent much time studying with the hope of becoming a missionary. That all changed when, in one tragic instant, she was paralyzed in a car accident.
At first, she was devastated. Stacy was sad many days, laying in bed crying. The sheer embarrassment of now having to wheel herself from class to class was sometimes too much to bare. And sometimes, she even found herself angry at God.
But by embracing her faith, she learned to cope with adversity. Now Stacy says: "To this day, I am not bitter about the circumstances of my life. I have seen the goodness of God, I have become a stronger person, and I would rather be in a wheelchair and know God than be a million-dollar professional athlete and spend an eternity apart from him." As Psalms 23:1-4 states: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my saviour; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the strength of my salvation, and my stronghold."
George Mueller was born in Kroppenstaedt, Prussia in 1805. When he was 28, he founded the Scriptural Knowledge Institute. One of the missions of the Institute was “to board, clothe and Scripturally educate destitute children who have lost both parents by death.” The orphanages he built cared for over 10,000 children during his lifetime. This alone is an amazing feat. But what's more amazing is that he did this without ever soliciting funds.
Instead, he relied on divine providence, prayer, and glorifying God. Being Calvinist, he believed in grace, and grace provided for him. He said: “How the means are to come, I know not; but I know that God is almighty, that the hearts of all are in His hands, and that, if He pleaseth to influence persons, they will send help.” And help came through God's grace. He never went into debt, and the orphans never went hungry.
Katie Pring of Essex, England was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, a painful and ultimately debilitating joint condition, at 16 years of age. This condition has no known cure. The doctors treated her pain with drugs, which worked for a while. But then they stopped. Her condition was so bad that she could no longer walk, and even had trouble turning faucets. It was at that point she turned to prayer. She went to a prayer service for her on a Sunday morning.
Later that afternoon, she was able to play a game of hockey.
How did Stacy James find the strength to go on? What led to George Mueller's acquisition of funds for his humble yet glorious endeavors without ever asking for a single dime? Why was Katie Pring able to run within a day after doctors described her condition as hopeless?
What conclusions should one draw from these examples, and the thousands more like them?
The evidence is overwhelming: miracles happen. They happened yesterday, happen today, and will happen tomorrow. Atheists who deny such occurrences are simply denying reality.
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