| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
the_antithesis
COFFEE!
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 5441
Local time: 8:25 AM
|
 Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Question to theists: What is "a level beyond the sensor |
  |
|
| AManWithABibleAndAGun wrote: | | I believe you have seen God, have heard God, and experienced God on a level beyond the sensory. |
This quote came from another thread, but it's something that theist tend to say an awful lot. They keep saying it, but they never explain it.
So I invite AManWithABibleAndAGun or any other theist on the board to explain what they mean by "a level beyond the sensory." What is it? What is the nature of this revelation of the almighty? In what manner does one receive, acknowledge, and confirm such non-sensory perception? I would genuinely like to know.
To my fellow atheists, I ask that you please refrain from cluttering this thread with speculation on what this means. I would really like to know what the theists mean by this from their own mouths (or fingers. You know what I mean.) If you'd had it explained to you before, feel free to share, but otherwise let's give the theists the floor on this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
That level of perception is a spiritual perception or revelation. It generally means to hear, feel, or know something by means of sharing it with those from thousands of years in the past and thousands of years in the future. If you ask God a question and the answer you discover is only explicable as eternally true (unchanging throughout time, even when time ceases to exist), then that knowledge is attributed to God.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the_antithesis
COFFEE!
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 5441
Local time: 8:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: | | It generally means to hear, feel, or know something by means of sharing it with those from thousands of years in the past and thousands of years in the future. |
How is that accomplished, much less verified? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mknayman
Highly Evolved and Loving It!
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 950
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: | | That level of perception is a spiritual perception or revelation. |
So it is still perceptible? That is perception. How do we percieve it then? Does it simply manifest in our minds? That would be an extra-sensory perception, or telepathy. So, how are these signals broadcast? What organ do we use to recieve them? The brain? What is the medium through which they travel, and at what speed? Is it faster than light? If so, the non-locality of mental energy effects on reality would destroy some of the base laws of physics... if they travel at or below the speed of light, then communication with god could take millions of years, depending on heaven's celestial location.
| rogue_prey wrote: | | It generally means to hear, feel, or know something by means of sharing it with those from thousands of years in the past and thousands of years in the future. If you ask God a question and the answer you discover is only explicable as eternally true (unchanging throughout time, even when time ceases to exist), then that knowledge is attributed to God. |
So you hear it and feel it? Those are auditory and tactile sensations. So we CAN perceive them with our ears? We can hear it? Our ears pick up on vibrations in the air caused by a physical movement in the real world. What is moving that air to create sound? What is expending the energy to move the specific volume of air? How is the sound generated? Does god have vocal cords?
Or, am I being too literal and you simply hear it in your head? If that's the case, then is it not possible you are hallucinating? imagining? Why are your claims of 'hearing god' more valid than those of serial killers who are simply 'obeying god's will'. Or those of Islamic extremeists who believe they are killing the innocent in the name of Allah?
Please explain. I am mystified by your delusion and arrogance (i'll be back in our one on one as soon as I have a bit of time  )
_________________
"And Yet It Moves..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| the_antithesis wrote: | | How is that accomplished, much less verified? |
It's accomplished through prayer, and verified through reason.
| rogue_prey wrote: | | It generally means to hear, feel, or know something by means of sharing it with those from thousands of years in the past and thousands of years in the future. If you ask God a question and the answer you discover is only explicable as eternally true (unchanging throughout time, even when time ceases to exist), then that knowledge is attributed to God. |
| mknayman wrote: | | So you hear it and feel it? Those are auditory and tactile sensations. So we CAN perceive them with our ears? We can hear it? Our ears pick up on vibrations in the air caused by a physical movement in the real world. What is moving that air to create sound? What is expending the energy to move the specific volume of air? How is the sound generated? Does god have vocal cords? |
| mknayman wrote: | | Or, am I being too literal and you simply hear it in your head? |
| rogue_prey wrote: | | That level of perception is a spiritual perception or revelation. |
You are mocking. Maybe you aren't too literal. God as a man has vocal cords. Perhaps we are all hallucinating.
| mknayman wrote: | | What is the medium through which they travel, and at what speed? Is it faster than light? If so, the non-locality of mental energy effects on reality would destroy some of the base laws of physics... if they travel at or below the speed of light, then communication with god could take millions of years, depending on heaven's celestial location. |
Heaven is all around. The air you breath is part of heaven. At the moment your body displaces a tiny piece of heaven or "the heavens". Contrast this to the fact that if you die a true follower or Christ, you'll be in all of heaven. Otherwise, you'll remain with your body, feasted on by maggots.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 11200
Local time: 8:25 AM
Location: Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| a level beyond the sensory simply means in the imagination, tho' I doubt our theists will agree. In their heart of heart-- another dandy expression -- they feel the presence of God. The greater the imagination the greater the intensity of the feelings overtaking you. I get the same feeling when I see on screen Nicole Kidman. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| josephpalazzo wrote: | | a level beyond the sensory simply means in the imagination, tho' I doubt our theists will agree. In their heart of heart-- another dandy expression -- they feel the presence of God. The greater the imagination the greater the intensity of the feelings overtaking you. I get the same feeling when I see on screen Nicole Kidman. |
No need to doubt. No theist is going to agree that they are simply imagining things.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mknayman
Highly Evolved and Loving It!
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 950
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: |
| rogue_prey wrote: | | It generally means to hear, feel, or know something by means of sharing it with those from thousands of years in the past and thousands of years in the future. If you ask God a question and the answer you discover is only explicable as eternally true (unchanging throughout time, even when time ceases to exist), then that knowledge is attributed to God. |
| mknayman wrote: | | So you hear it and feel it? Those are auditory and tactile sensations. So we CAN perceive them with our ears? We can hear it? Our ears pick up on vibrations in the air caused by a physical movement in the real world. What is moving that air to create sound? What is expending the energy to move the specific volume of air? How is the sound generated? Does god have vocal cords? |
| mknayman wrote: | | Or, am I being too literal and you simply hear it in your head? |
| rogue_prey wrote: | | That level of perception is a spiritual perception or revelation. |
You are mocking. Maybe you aren't too literal. God as a man has vocal cords. Perhaps we are all hallucinating.
| mknayman wrote: | | What is the medium through which they travel, and at what speed? Is it faster than light? If so, the non-locality of mental energy effects on reality would destroy some of the base laws of physics... if they travel at or below the speed of light, then communication with god could take millions of years, depending on heaven's celestial location. |
Heaven is all around. The air you breath is part of heaven. At the moment your body displaces a tiny piece of heaven or "the heavens". Contrast this to the fact that if you die a true follower or Christ, you'll be in all of heaven. Otherwise, you'll remain with your body, feasted on by maggots. |
No, I am not mocking. These are real questions. So god, as man, has vocal cords... but not as god. So can he speak to you as god? Do you hear with ears or your head? One is impossible, the other is suspect of being a hallucination.
You yourself said 'perhaps we are all hallucinating'. I would imagine you most likely are...
If I die believing in Christ, I go to heaven, if I don't I rot? How do you know this? Does the possible hallucination tell you this? Is it from an ancient book? We all rot. Every one of us. There is no reason to believe any differently... if you can provide sufficient reason to believe differently, you would certainly change the world.
Rogue, you mean well, I can try... take off the your biased glasses for a minute, and just try to look at it rationally. I know it means your parents were wrong, and you've believed a falsehood your entire life... but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's there...
_________________
"And Yet It Moves..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mknayman wrote: | | Rogue, you mean well, I can try... take off the your biased glasses for a minute, and just try to look at it rationally. I know it means your parents were wrong, and you've believed a falsehood your entire life... but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's there... |
I use to make that same argument. I was an atheist for a few years. So, I have donned the scientist scope. I know what you think you know.
Mind returning the favor? Not everyone is wrong. They simply see only part of the picture. Jesus, though, saw the whole picture.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mknayman
Highly Evolved and Loving It!
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 950
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: | | mknayman wrote: | | Rogue, you mean well, I can try... take off the your biased glasses for a minute, and just try to look at it rationally. I know it means your parents were wrong, and you've believed a falsehood your entire life... but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's there... |
I use to make that same argument. I was an atheist for a few years. So, I have donned the scientist scope. I know what you think you know.
Mind returning the favor? Not everyone is wrong. They simply see only part of the picture. Jesus, though, saw the whole picture. |
First, demonstrate Jesus was real. Next, demonstrate Jesus was supernatural. How do you know these things? If not through empirical evidence, and only through feeling, then you are leaving yourself open to self delusion. It is no different than me saying, "No, Mohammed saw the whole Picture. Jesus was a fraud".
Your response would have to be, "How do you know that?"
_________________
"And Yet It Moves..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mknayman wrote: |
First, demonstrate Jesus was real. Next, demonstrate Jesus was supernatural. How do you know these things? If not through empirical evidence, and only through feeling, then you are leaving yourself open to self delusion. It is no different than me saying, "No, Mohammed saw the whole Picture. Jesus was a fraud".
Your response would have to be, "How do you know that?" |
It isn't for me to demonstrate anything to you. I'm not here to convert. I'm here for my own selfish reasons. Therefore, I have nothing to gain in your conversion and no burden of proof.
If I were trying to convert, it would only have the opposite effect. You lack faith. That is your own burden.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mknayman
Highly Evolved and Loving It!
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 950
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: | | mknayman wrote: |
First, demonstrate Jesus was real. Next, demonstrate Jesus was supernatural. How do you know these things? If not through empirical evidence, and only through feeling, then you are leaving yourself open to self delusion. It is no different than me saying, "No, Mohammed saw the whole Picture. Jesus was a fraud".
Your response would have to be, "How do you know that?" |
It isn't for me to demonstrate anything to you. I'm not here to convert. I'm here for my own selfish reasons. Therefore, I have nothing to gain in your conversion and no burden of proof.
If I were trying to convert, it would only have the opposite effect. You lack faith. That is your own burden. |
No no no, you don't get off that easy, Rogue.
I am perfectly fine with you believing what you will, but there is some serious intellectual dishonesty going on here. Beyond that, you claim it 'is my burden', insinuating that it is, indeed, a BAD thing to lack faith, and that you are superior to me in that you 'know' the truth while I do not. If you really just wanted to bugger off and go live your life with your beliefs, you wouldn't have sought an Atheist forum and engaged in debates. You probably have a need, much like I do, to discuss your beliefs openly. This leaves your ideals open to debate, and that's what I am doing. Just answer questions honestly. Ask the important ones.
Why do you believe what you believe? It would seem to me, your answer is "Because I do" or '' I have faith". If that is justification enough, then how can you discount other claims of belief like pixies, fairies, bigfoot, the loch ness monster , trolls (seen some of those around here, so I believe in them), Allah, Mohammed, Yaweh, Buddah, Quetzalcoatl, Dragons, vampires, werewolves, living mummies, human levitation, mind reading, ESP, Telekenesis, homeopathy, magnetic therapy, alien abduction, Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Horace, Ra, the 9/11 conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, JFK conspiracies, pretty much ANY conspiracy, Timecube or ANY OTHER TOTAL BULLSHIT THING!
I guess you don't believe them cause there is no evidence...
_________________
"And Yet It Moves..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tinker683
Romantic Sap
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2185
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quick question: If something is 'beyond the sensory' (which I'm assuming means beyond our abilities of perceptions), how exactly would you be aware of perceiving anything in the first place?
_________________
"When you smiled you had my undivided attention. When you laughed you had my urge to laugh with you. When you cried you had my urge to hold you. When you said you loved me, you had my heart forever" -Author Unknown
"Meeting you was fate, becoming your friend was a choice, but falling in love with you I had no control over." -Shakespeare in Love |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogue_prey
Intern
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 78
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is, indeed, a bad thing to lack faith. I don't believe that I am better than you, but I do believe that faith grants better counsel of understanding. You claim that I'm intellectually dishonest or lazy. Meanwhile, I claim that you are spiritually dishonest or lazy.
| mknayman wrote: | | Why do you believe what you believe? It would seem to me, your answer is "Because I do" or '' I have faith". If that is justification enough, then how can you discount other claims of belief like pixies, fairies, bigfoot, the loch ness monster , trolls (seen some of those around here, so I believe in them), Allah, Mohammed, Yaweh, Buddah, Quetzalcoatl, Dragons, vampires, werewolves, living mummies, human levitation, mind reading, ESP, Telekenesis, homeopathy, magnetic therapy, alien abduction, Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Horace, Ra, the 9/11 conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, JFK conspiracies, pretty much ANY conspiracy, Timecube or ANY OTHER TOTAL BULLSHIT THING! |
With faith, many of these ideas can be explored through "mental experiments". Faith being, "people with these beliefs were every bit as capable of reasoning as I am." Allowed, through globalization, war on terrorism, the internet, etc., my beliefs may be a more sophisticated.
To some extent, I do believe in many of these things. Many of these things arise from fear and lack of faith and/or boredom. Others, like the gods of myth arise as aspects of or paths to the eternal, infinite One. He is everywhere, all the time. However, their beliefs and religions developed with limitations. Only Yahweh was allowed free reign. Because of the positivist attitudes of the Hebrew, they were able to return to the healthy and unlimited concept of faith first developed in Adam.
_________________
TED Talks: www.ted.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RMS
Non-hunter
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 817
Local time: 7:25 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rogue_prey wrote: | | It is, indeed, a bad thing to lack faith. I don't believe that I am better than you, but I do believe that faith grants better counsel of understanding. |
Better "understanding" = smarter = better than you faithless atheists, and arrogantly self-righteous.
| rogue_prey wrote: | | You claim that I'm intellectually dishonest or lazy. Meanwhile, I claim that you are spiritually dishonest or lazy. |
Hoho! That's rich. And again arrogantly self-righteous.
You are no different than Romans120 and all these other self-aggrandizing, intellectually dishonest losers who claim to have "special knowledge" through faith. Did mommy or daddy not hug you enough, you get picked on at grade school, or do you so desperately need the illusion of intelligence and power? Whatever it is, get some help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
