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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: Quantum entanglement |
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There are three degrees of spookiness in quantum entanglement:
A ← ●● → B
1) Observer A, called Alice, will measure the spin of incoming particle. If it has spin, say, up then she knows that observer B, called Bob, will measure its counter-part particle’s spin to be down.This is like Alice tossing a coin, heads or tails, and say it comes down heads. Her counterpart Bob who is light years away on the other side of the galaxy, who is also tossing a coin, and now his must come out in this case as tails!
2) Not only that, but Alice can choose whatever axis, an infinity of possibilities, along which the particle spin must quantize as spin up or spin down. Now Bob’s particle, on the other side of the galaxy, must also quantize along the same axis. But how does the particle know that?!?
3) Furthermore, a third observer C, called Claude, might be moving towards either Alice or Bob. If Claude is moving towards Alice, then according to him, she is measuring first, and she decides along which axis the particle spin will quantize. However if at the same time another observer D, called Donna, is moving towards Bob, then according to Donna, it is Bob who makes the first measurement and he decides along which axis the particle will quantize. How can this be??!?? Which is the cause and which is the effect? Accordingly Quantum physics makes no distinction between the two cases. |
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Moloth Coin Operated Boy

Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23071 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: Warner Robins, GA

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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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and thus the reason i love QM.
the universe doesn't give a fuck if we think it makes sense... lol.. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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tonyman1989 Forum Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2461 Local time: 4:56 AM Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But how does the particle know that?!? |
I heard about this question, I heard they came up with two answers,
1. inforamation can move faster then light.
2. there connected through some sort of wormhole
I don't know if they came up with a better one yet. QM is very interesting. _________________ "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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Paranoia21 Weird Fish

Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Posts: 1216 Local time: 2:56 AM Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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But according to SR,(I think) nothing can move faster then light. _________________ VERITAS OMNIA VINCIT
Keep YOUR religion in YOUR churches and YOUR homes and out of OUR government. |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | and thus the reason i love QM.
the universe doesn't give a fuck if we think it makes sense... lol.. |
Just when we think we've got it figured all out, Mother Nature has a way of reminding us whose the boss...  |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| tonyman1989 wrote: | | Quote: | | But how does the particle know that?!? |
I heard about this question, I heard they came up with two answers,
1. inforamation can move faster then light.
2. there connected through some sort of wormhole
I don't know if they came up with a better one yet. QM is very interesting. |
The consensus among physicists (there is a minority that have dissented over the years, among them Einstein) is that non-locality (the requirement that no influence can travel faster than light) is violated. |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Paranoia21 wrote: | | But according to SR,(I think) nothing can move faster then light. |
Right, this is the reason why SR and QM are in conflict. Einstein was the leader in defending SR, while Bohr and Heisenberg would argue for QM. In the intervening years, from 1925 and on, Bohr was able to answer Einstein's every objection to QM, until Einstein came with what is now famously known as the EPR paradox, which I have outlined in the OP. Bell (1964) was the first to write a theorem, which opened the possibility of doing an expriment. Alain Aspect was the first to conduct that experiment (It was his PhD thesis).
Read this. |
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tonyman1989 Forum Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2461 Local time: 4:56 AM Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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what is?
_________________ "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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tonyman1989 Forum Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2461 Local time: 4:56 AM Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Paranoia21 wrote: | | But according to SR,(I think) nothing can move faster then light. |
Right, this is the reason why SR and QM are in conflict. Einstein was the leader in defending SR, while Bohr and Heisenberg would argue for QM. In the intervening years, from 1925 and on, Bohr was able to answer Einstein's every objection to QM, until Einstein came with what is now famously known as the EPR paradox, which I have outlined in the OP. Bell (1964) was the first to write a theorem, which opened the possibility of doing an expriment. Alain Aspect was the first to conduct that experiment (It was his PhD thesis).
Read this. |
really what QM concpect allows FTL? _________________ "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| tonyman1989 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Paranoia21 wrote: | | But according to SR,(I think) nothing can move faster then light. |
Right, this is the reason why SR and QM are in conflict. Einstein was the leader in defending SR, while Bohr and Heisenberg would argue for QM. In the intervening years, from 1925 and on, Bohr was able to answer Einstein's every objection to QM, until Einstein came with what is now famously known as the EPR paradox, which I have outlined in the OP. Bell (1964) was the first to write a theorem, which opened the possibility of doing an expriment. Alain Aspect was the first to conduct that experiment (It was his PhD thesis).
Read this. |
what is? non-locality
really what QM concept allows FTL? |
The principle of locality is that distant objects cannot have direct influence on one another: an object is influenced directly only by its immediate surroundings. Quantum entanglement (see the OP) demonstrates that this principle is violated. Einstein used it to criticize the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics on the grounds that entanglement implied what he called "spooky action at a distance". However, the principle of special relativity is saved by the no-communication theorem, which proves that the observers cannot use the inequality violations to communicate information to each other faster than the speed of light. The paradox lies in that it seems that both particles moving away from each other "know" what the two observers are going to do. |
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kmisho Stochastic

Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 4658 Local time: 6:56 PM Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Bell's Theorem _________________ K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Alain Aspect was the one who in 1983 conducted the first of Bell's experiment. Remarkably, he did it as his PhD thesis.
Aspect PhD thesis |
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tonyman1989 Forum Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2461 Local time: 4:56 AM Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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thanks kmisho _________________ "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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josephpalazzo Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 3:56 AM Location: D-brane
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Quantum entanglement soon to be tested on a global scale:
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RyanDzundza Sock Puppet

Joined: 19 Sep 2007 Posts: 5250 Local time: 8:56 AM Location: Manchester

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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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my ears are bleeding
my mind isnt able to understand QM at all _________________
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