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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
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Location: SoCal, USA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | A single hair will NEVER grow into a human, but a zygote ALWAYS will. |
| Eyedunno wrote: | | Bullshit. Just that when a zygote dies, we call it "not getting pregnant," same as with other very early stages of pregnancy. |
That's not an intentional killing, therefore you couldn't hold the mother culpable in a court of law.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | As for the hair, well, it wouldn't get there without the right kind of laboratory work and a donor womb (or perhaps an artificial womb of some sort), but my point is that the potential is still there. |
A zygote is a human at the first stage of life. A hair is not. A zygote is not a potential, the hair is only a potential at best.
| Eyedunno wrote: | As for the baby thing, I don't think the line blurs for newborns at all - they're still not persons.
When you get to talking about a two-year old, then you're getting really blurry. |
| CET wrote: | Then it's OK to kill babies?  |
| Eyedunno wrote: | You obviously read the next part, and still asked this? Anyway, a newborn cannot plan for the future, and almost certainly has no meaningful concept of minds outside its own, so "person" wouldn't seem to apply. But Peter Singer nails this one better than I can (though for the record, I still think Animal Rights is almost always a crazy idea  ), and he's gotten a lot of flak over it from right-wingers:
http://www.princeton.edu/~psinger/faq.html
| Quote: | Q. You have been quoted as saying: "Killing a defective infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Sometimes it is not wrong at all." Is that quote accurate?
A. It is accurate, but can be misleading if read without an understanding of what I mean by the term “person” (which is discussed in Practical Ethics, from which that quotation is taken). I use the term "person" to refer to a being who is capable of anticipating the future, of having wants and desires for the future. As I have said in answer to the previous question, I think that it is generally a greater wrong to kill such a being than it is to kill a being that has no sense of existing over time. Newborn human babies have no sense of their own existence over time. So killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living. That doesn’t mean that it is not almost always a terrible thing to do. It is, but that is because most infants are loved and cherished by their parents, and to kill an infant is usually to do a great wrong to its parents.
Sometimes, perhaps because the baby has a serious disability, parents think it better that their newborn infant should die. Many doctors will accept their wishes, to the extent of not giving the baby life-supporting medical treatment. That will often ensure that the baby dies. My view is different from this, only to the extent that if a decision is taken, by the parents and doctors, that it is better that a baby should die, I believe it should be possible to carry out that decision, not only by withholding or withdrawing life-support – which can lead to the baby dying slowly from dehydration or from an infection - but also by taking active steps to end the baby’s life swiftly and humanely. |
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So, it's OK to kill babies?
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CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 12:08 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | Oh, and sorry to hear about the miscarriage. It seems like both of you handled it well though, with concern for quality of life of the baby placed above your own desire for children. |
It's cool, it's one of those things you just have to deal with. Of course, there was something weird about just finding myself wandering around the baby department at Walmart. I wasn't even entirely sure how I got there. That was a weird moment, but it expressed itself and we got over it pretty quickly.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | I still don't care for the "eating, excreting, growing and developing" stuff. Mildew also does all of those things, and I assume you still clean your shower. |
I doubt any court of law will convict me for murder by washing the shower. However, mildew IS alive, I just have no qualms about killing mildew, much like eating eggs, chicken, beef and other tasty animals.
| Eyedunno wrote: | | I don't see how having human DNA changes anything. DNA, no matter how complex it is, doesn't think, plan, or contribute to society. It takes a developed brain and a certain period of maturation to do those things. |
You've abstracted that part of the argument.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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its MORE okay to kill a mewling, non-sentient baby than a fully aware adult.
it sounds bad and distasteful, but as far as the subject itself is concerned, i stand by the statement.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | That's not an intentional killing, therefore you couldn't hold the mother culpable in a court of law. |
If a branch breaks off a tree in a storm, nobody's responsible, but if somebody prunes a branch, it's an intentional act, therefore you could hold that person responsible in a court of law. The point is whether it's morally wrong to prune a branch. And if you're doing it to somebody else's tree, then yeah, there might be a moral concern (unless the person who owns the tree totally doesn't care), as the act of pruning it has consequences on another moral being. It's not an affront to the branch itself though. The branch itself has no concern for its fate, and neither does a zygote or an embryo. |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | its MORE okay to kill a mewling, non-sentient baby than a fully aware adult.
it sounds bad and distasteful, but as far as the subject itself is concerned, i stand by the statement. |
I'm not sure that it sounds so bad. In fact, many people on both sides of the debate make a similar choice explicit when they state that 3rd trimester abortion should be legal only in the case where the mother's life is in danger.
I also agree with your statement - I think that the killing of an infant, in and of itself, is less "wrong" than the killing of a normal, mature adult. That's because an infant carries fewer properties which make killing wrong in the first place.
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | its MORE okay to kill a mewling, non-sentient baby than a fully aware adult.
it sounds bad and distasteful, but as far as the subject itself is concerned, i stand by the statement. |
I'm not sure that it sounds so bad. In fact, many people on both sides of the debate make a similar choice explicit when they state that 3rd trimester abortion should be legal only in the case where the mother's life is in danger.
I also agree with your statement - I think that the killing of an infant, in and of itself, is less "wrong" than the killing of a normal, mature adult. That's because an infant carries fewer properties which make killing wrong in the first place. |
What are those properties? |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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self-awareness, mainly.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | self-awareness, mainly. |
Yeah, that's a biggie. To that, I would add the awareness of and concern for the past and future (as stated by Singer above), and awareness of minds outside one's own and recognition of those minds as similar entities to one's own. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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it is also that level of self-awareness that i base my omnivorous diet upon.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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These sound like arguments for pulling the plug on a vegetable, not when an abortion is OK. People aren't self aware until years after they're born, yet killing a baby is clearly murder. Therefore this line of reasoning is spurious and moot.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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Local time: 8:08 AM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | its MORE okay to kill a mewling, non-sentient baby than a fully aware adult.
it sounds bad and distasteful, but as far as the subject itself is concerned, i stand by the statement. |
I'm not sure that it sounds so bad. In fact, many people on both sides of the debate make a similar choice explicit when they state that 3rd trimester abortion should be legal only in the case where the mother's life is in danger.
I also agree with your statement - I think that the killing of an infant, in and of itself, is less "wrong" than the killing of a normal, mature adult. That's because an infant carries fewer properties which make killing wrong in the first place. |
I agree. And the fetus even less. In my opinon (at least legally) the fetus is not a person since you can't even deduct it from your taxes as a dependent..
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | These sound like arguments for pulling the plug on a vegetable, not when an abortion is OK. People aren't self aware until years after they're born, yet killing a baby is clearly murder. Therefore this line of reasoning is spurious and moot. |
so, current laws in the United States are the end all be all of ultimate morality? O_o
you said "murder" and that is a legal definition, right?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 12:08 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | These sound like arguments for pulling the plug on a vegetable, not when an abortion is OK. People aren't self aware until years after they're born, yet killing a baby is clearly murder. Therefore this line of reasoning is spurious and moot. |
| Moloth wrote: | so, current laws in the United States are the end all be all of ultimate morality? O_o
you said "murder" and that is a legal definition, right? |
Do you disagree with it?
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23071
Local time: 3:08 AM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm saying that there is a gray area when talking about the rights and suffering of the mindless and/or non-sentient.
You'll not hear me say, "Killing babies is A-OK!"
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Mr_C
Reckoner
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | I'm saying that there is a gray area when talking about the rights and suffering of the mindless and/or non-sentient.
You'll not hear me say, "Killing babies is A-OK!" |
But eating them is?  |
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