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tonyman1989
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Enter the Pantheist |
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| Nox wrote: | Hello to all.
I've never really felt comfortable writing introductory posts (what to say? the norm is so bland...), but I also feel weird skipping them. For the last few years I've been a religious atheist (after being non-religious for most of my life I discovered how many religions defied my conception of the concept and began exploring those which did not require faith), and rather recently I discovered pantheism and "made the switch."
I'm a complete forum-whore, and so I'm always looking for new communities. It seems like most of the views held here conflict with mine enough to spark interesting and beneficial conversations (I'm a strong believer in surrounding myself with people who disagree with me so that I always question my views), but at the same time they aren't so radically different as to make me entirely out of place.
Here's to the hope of intelligent conversation and new insight. |
Hello and welcome
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"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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tonyman1989
Forum Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2461
Local time: 7:19 PM
Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimitz wrote: | Welcome Aboard Nox!
A Pantheist eh?! Well we have a Wiccan or two floating around here. So you're not totally alone in the multiply deity catagory.
This might be fun.
All are welcome at the baby BBq.
(old running joke here) |
I thought pantheist were "sexed up atheist"?
_________________
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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transientangent
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I like you Nox. I'm still not convinced that atheism and pantheism are fundamentally different in respect other than approach or expression of the same idea. Atheism to me seems to entail the belief that there is no mighty external agent, and pantheism seems to be just that. Are the words nature and tao so different? (I say all of this as one who identifies with both camps.)
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everything is changing
a constant flow
our existence - a photograph
the time - like slow-motion
did someone realize
that our life is based
on the history we've been taught
we are living the results of a lie
Project Pitchfork - "Existence"
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Gettin' In Tune
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Anyways, pantheism goes unsupported. There is not even a causality test for pantheism. It is a vague assumption. I do not know how one arrives at pantheism nor provides a test for it. Care to expand? |
and yet you support Deism?  |
Call me an iconoclast. Do you mock me or my arguments? I grow tired of self righteous atheist pricks like yourself.
(How many times are you going to resort to personal attacks to support your stance? The majority of your attacks against me are personal attacks. This strengthen my stance. Thanks for playing dumbass.) |
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Nox
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Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| tonyman1989 wrote: | | Nimitz wrote: | Welcome Aboard Nox!
A Pantheist eh?! Well we have a Wiccan or two floating around here. So you're not totally alone in the multiply deity catagory.
This might be fun.
All are welcome at the baby BBq.
(old running joke here) |
I thought pantheist were "sexed up atheist"? |
That's closer than polytheism, but I still think Dawkins should have looked closer before he dismissed pantheism.
I'm touched. 
| Quote: | | 'm still not convinced that atheism and pantheism are fundamentally different in respect other than approach or expression of the same idea. Atheism to me seems to entail the belief that there is no mighty external agent, and pantheism seems to be just that. Are the words nature and tao so different? (I say all of this as one who identifies with both camps.) |
It's kind of complex. In short, technically they are fundamentally different but in the light that I think you are looking at them in they are largely the same.
Atheism is a lack of belief in gods; because of the wonders of semantics pantheism thus cannot be atheism, because its conception of god is viewed as legitimate. In the sense of a philosopher's god (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent), or more "standard" understandings of deities, pantheism could be viewed as atheist, though not interchangeable with atheism as there are additional beliefs inherent to pantheism.
In some ways Tao is nature, but I think that the concept far transcends the "traditional" conception of nature, much as Spinoza's monist unity transcends normal conceptions of unity. Tao implies a high level of interconnectedness that we are not normally aware of or even capable of fully articulating, but rather can only experience directly and observe.
Of course, this is my more transcendental take on pantheism. The World Pantheism Movement, which explicitly allows flexibility of belief to escape dogmaticism and allow for different pantheists to come together, would embrace someone who is essentially an atheist nature lover as a pantheist if that is how they chose to self-identify. In cases like these I think that Dawkin's idea of "sexed up atheism" becomes more relevant (though not in the pejorative/ dismissive sense that he used it in), and I would almost go as far as to label these ideologies as an attempt to re-define divinity. That is, by taking "god" and "the divine" and bringing them to a naturalistic level, they are attempting to preserve the sense of sacredness and reverence people receive from religion and often find in nature while removing ignorance and superstition which have long followed in the wake of theism. |
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