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FlatEarth1024
Watcher...being watched!
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | I think this whole "pi=3" argument is pretty silly. It is not said, for example, what instrument is used to measure a "cubit". Since a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his fingertips, this could vary greatly. |
Oh my Hank! That reminds me of one of the best terrible movies of all time. The Black Bird with George Segal.
"It's black and as long as your arm."
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Leszek
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I also agree that this pi = 3 thing is silly, even if the bible was inspired by God. The passage is about a human made bathtub and the description is describing it as opposed to God giving instructions on how it should be. Hell, if we follow modern rules for science and engineering measurements, then the Bible has it correct. If you said it should be 31 cubits on a test at my school you would have got the question wrong. It is 10 cubits across and that has only one significant digit, thus so should the result. I could type a very large post on all the many reasons why there is nothing to make fun of here in this passage. But I will instead only talk about 2.
1) There are many more absurd passages in the Bible more worthy of ridicule.
2) The silliness of this argument make atheist look bad to more knowledgeable theists. ("That is the best you have?...")
Having said that, there are good reasons to bring this argument out. If you think you have a hopeless case theist who is not worth your time, you can point this passage out to him and listen to his answer. If he points out one the million valid reasons why this passage doesn't change anything you are good to go, if he comes up with a rationalization on how this passage is very correct then you know you have a hopeless case. For example Jason Gastrich goes into some bit about numerology to come up with a number that is close to PI. There is also some retard who seems to want to argue about the thickness of the walls and how the 10 cubits across is to the outside while the 30 cubits is around the inside of the wall.
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Nicomachus
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 4284
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Gerard wrote: | 1 Kings 7:23 says:
| Quote: | | And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. |
It's about a big bathtub King Solomon made out of cast iron for his Temple. If we go by the asumption that the sea was perfectly circular (i.o.w. that this is the meaning of "round all about"), it follows that pi = 3.
Gerard |
Heck, for a primitive people, that was a pretty good guess... Remember: God works in mysterious ways... |
Assuming this history is right, it apparently wasn't a very good guess. Egyptians and Babylonians had better approximations nearly 2000 BC, around a 1000 years before that passage was written. |
Is this a case of: no, the Russians knew that before... no, the Chinese did... no, the Zulus, blah, blah, blah...  |
Well, it becomes a much more interesting question when you realize these texts are presumably divine and are derived from a "perfect entity," even "inerrant."
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Gerard
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Nicomachus wrote: | Well, it becomes a much more interesting question when you realize these texts are presumably divine and are derived from a "perfect entity," even "inerrant."
*Nico |
On another forum (a Christian conservative one) I've seen a discussion about this matter where a fundy Christian argued that it is was childish sophistry to regard this as an inaccuracy in the Bible, because while God and his word may be perfect, the crafters of the see were apparently not and the thing could not have been perfectly circular. Also in those days the technology wasn't as perfect as it would later become and that was no fault of God. I didn't pay much attention at the time but when I looked up the text Tonyman asked for earlier today I noticed that it does indeed say "it was round all about". I guess you could say that it still doesn't say "perfectly circular", but still....
Gerard
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Nicomachus
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Leszek wrote: | I also agree that this pi = 3 thing is silly, even if the bible was inspired by God. The passage is about a human made bathtub and the description is describing it as opposed to God giving instructions on how it should be. Hell, if we follow modern rules for science and engineering measurements, then the Bible has it correct. If you said it should be 31 cubits on a test at my school you would have got the question wrong. It is 10 cubits across and that has only one significant digit, thus so should the result. I could type a very large post on all the many reasons why there is nothing to make fun of here in this passage. But I will instead only talk about 2.
1) There are many more absurd passages in the Bible more worthy of ridicule.
2) The silliness of this argument make atheist look bad to more knowledgeable theists. ("That is the best you have?...") |
I disagree. I think it is pretty clear what the passage is discussing; many other cultures had worked out their maths much better. The interesting aspect of this passage is that it just indicates how banal the the text as a whole is, regardless of what canon is being discussed. For an "inerrant" text to so blatantly get wrong (as compared to the knowledge of there, less "chosen by God," cultures) something which has been so pivotal and important in human history in such a casual way is just, well, pathetic.
*Nico |
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Nicomachus
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerard wrote: | | Nicomachus wrote: | Well, it becomes a much more interesting question when you realize these texts are presumably divine and are derived from a "perfect entity," even "inerrant."
*Nico |
On another forum (a Christian conservative one) I've seen a discussion about this matter where a fundy Christian argued that it is was childish sophistry to regard this as an inaccuracy in the Bible, because while God and his word may be perfect, the crafters of the see were apparently not and the thing could not have been perfectly circular. Also in those days the technology wasn't as perfect as it would later become and that was no fault of God. I didn't pay much attention at the time but when I looked up the text Tonyman asked for earlier today I noticed that it does indeed say "it was round all about". I guess you could say that it still doesn't say "perfectly circular", but still....
Gerard |
Well, doesn't Paul essentially ask us to be sophists and beware of the philsophers? At any rate, it does indeed say "round all about." If we want to play the game of "Well, it says 'round all about' but it wasn't really 'round all about' then I'm not sure how you end up with something that is inerrant or something that amounts to "Divine Truth." And then this neglects the whole business that it is Pi we're discussing.
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Gerard
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | It is not said, for example, what instrument is used to measure a "cubit". Since a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his fingertips, this could vary greatly. |
Well, as cubits may vary, I would at least hope that they used just one of the variations when they crafted that see. I don't think that they would change cubit sizes halfway the process of measuring. And then, ten cubits would be ten cubits, whatever type of cubits was used. While they were measuring that tub they must have had only one type of cubit in use surely.......
Or maybe not! I mean, it would explain the whole thing wouldn't it?
Gerard
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The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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Gerard
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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At least this Christian apologist
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/pi.htm
goes out of his way to convince us that there is no inaccuracy involved. And he doesn't argue that the see wasn't perfectly circular. He says it had a brim which would account for the discrepancy. The brim is actually mentioned in 1 Kings 7:24
| Quote: | | And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. |
Very funny in a way.
For me personally I don't need the argument to conclude that the Bible isn't the word of God. The fact that it's just a book is enough for me.
Gerard
_________________
The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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tonyman1989
Forum Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Local time: 9:34 PM
Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Gerard wrote: | 1 Kings 7:23 says:
| Quote: | | And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. |
It's about a big bathtub King Solomon made out of cast iron for his Temple. If we go by the asumption that the sea was perfectly circular (i.o.w. that this is the meaning of "round all about"), it follows that pi = 3.
Gerard |
Heck, for a primitive people, that was a pretty good guess... Remember: God works in mysterious ways... |
Assuming this history is right, it apparently wasn't a very good guess. Egyptians and Babylonians had better approximations nearly 2000 BC, around a 1000 years before that passage was written. |
That funny they couldn't even get close.
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"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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fritzgryphon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| To be fair, the author may have just rounded 31.4 cubits to 30. I think it's unfair to jump to rash conclusions about king Solomons tub making skillz. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| fritzgryphon wrote: | | To be fair, the author may have just rounded 31.4 cubits to 30. I think it's unfair to jump to rash conclusions about king Solomons tub making skillz. |
We should make a big deal with the women he had... |
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tonyman1989
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Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| fritzgryphon wrote: | | To be fair, the author may have just rounded 31.4 cubits to 30. I think it's unfair to jump to rash conclusions about king Solomons tub making skillz. |
It is a big deal is people say the auther was god.
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"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| tonyman1989 wrote: | | fritzgryphon wrote: | | To be fair, the author may have just rounded 31.4 cubits to 30. I think it's unfair to jump to rash conclusions about king Solomons tub making skillz. |
It is a big deal is people say the auther was god. |
But God can do anything. He can make Pi = 3 or 42, can't he, or am I the only one who sees that? |
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