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JCMac
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| FlatEarth1024 wrote: | | WisdomManiac91 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Very wrong on the latter. Many Christians see babies as totally pure and not capable of sin until a certain age or maturity. |
Did you know that until John Paul II changed the traditional belief, according to Catholic doctrine, all babies/infants who died went straight to Hell (if they were unbaptized)? The reason: They were unable to accept Christ, because they were not old enough to understand his message. Fortunately, John Paul changed that so that babies who died only went to Purgatory for a while, and then went to Heaven. 
Plus, some Christian denominations accept the belief that children are born with the sins of their parents, and so they baptize them, to cleanse them of all sins. |
Do you think it pisses God off that he spent a whole 6 days planning out all this stuff and it works out great for him for 2000 years, and then some old guy in a funky pointed hat mumbles a few words in Latin, sprinkles some magic dust, molests a little boy or two and POOF!...God's plan is shot right to shit. If I'm God, I'm not happy that some half-dead mummy can undo my will with the wave of his magic wand. No sir. If I'm God, I'm pissed. |
 I can imagine how frustrating it would be. God's will must be like a pack of cards, you balance it to form a pyramid, and with a simple gush of air, it all collapses.
Some plan.
_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
"Intolerance is the natural concomitant of strong faith; tolerance grows only when faith loses certainty; certainty is murderous."
-Will Durant
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the universe." |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | In fact that is how many people become atheists like you or spirtual people like myself. |
Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily.
| ShaSha wrote: | | No, not all of them believe in hell. |
Then they are rejecting an pretty big piece of Christian Dogma. I'm a Philosopher, this would be like me rejecting logic.
| ShaSha wrote: | | In fact it would be interesting to know exactly how many of them do believe in the hell that fundamentalists believe in. I daresay more and more are not accepting the hell of eternal torture. Yay, for my side! |
The hell of the fundies is different from the hell of the Catholic Theologians who view hell as mental anguish and eternal separation from God. Regardless, my point still stands.
| ShaSha wrote: | | Most are loving human beings who love other human beings though they are less than perfect. Only people like Phelps see us as scum ridden. |
Thats doesn't matter. All this means is that Christians and Muslims betray their own theology. The fact remains, the bible teaches us that we are all sinners, end of story. Many Christians don't like this, so they cherry pick. They delude themselves into thinking the Bible is a warm funny "love thy neighbor" book, but conveniently miss the atrocities.
| ShaSha wrote: | | Many Christians see babies as totally pure and not capable of sin until a certain age or maturity. |
So what? The bible makes clear...very clear, that babies are born into sin. This is called original sin. This is why Catholics baptize babies. Without the doctrine of original sin, why on earth did Jesus need to save us? Without original sin, Christianity descends even further into incoherence.
| ShaSha wrote: | | I don't think there are any issues more important than the POE or less important. |
It isn't important. Evolutionary theory makes sense of pain, suffering and evil. Since God doesn't exist, this isn't a problem no is it?
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 5:16 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | In fact that is how many people become atheists like you or spirtual people like myself. |
Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily. |
Cool! How long have you been practicing?
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Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4658
Local time: 11:16 PM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Very wrong on the latter. Many Christians see babies as totally pure and not capable of sin until a certain age or maturity. |
This is itself a conundrum for christianity. If it's true, then all children should be killed before they get a chance to sin. It's the best way to assure that everyone goes to heaven, a sacrifice of the few for the many, after the style of Jesus. Those who do the killing won't make it into heaven, but if they're dilligent and efficient killers the number of people they save will vastly outweigh their own numbers.
The cost/benefit ratio definitely makes killing children a bargain.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| CET wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | In fact that is how many people become atheists like you or spirtual people like myself. |
Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily. |
Cool! How long have you been practicing? |
A while now. I don't sit in the recommended position, for it hurts my legs, but I sit in a comfortable position, close my eyes, clear my mind and concentrate on either my breathing or my own consciousness. I guess I am a Buddhist to an extent, since I accept the four noble truths.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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FlatEarth1024
Hey, Everybody!
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4148
Local time: 1:16 PM
Location: Dippin' my balls in it.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | The cost/benefit ratio definitely makes killing children a bargain. |
And takes much fewer blows also, so its even more economical!
Compared to a sinning adult, what with the arrest, torturing to extract 'confession', mock show trial and public stake burning, you can kill innocent children at pennies on the dollar! I'm on board! 
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily. |
Cool! How long have you been practicing? |
A while now. I don't sit in the recommended position, for it hurts my legs, but I sit in a comfortable position, close my eyes, clear my mind and concentrate on either my breathing or my own consciousness. |
Awesome! It's always good to meet other "spiritual atheists". 
There are some that say, "You HAVE to sit like this, and breathe like this, etc." Dogma. As long as you have right intention, and your practice is good, it doesn't matter. It's all empty anyways.
What school are you partial to? Rinzai, Soto, Ch'an, Shin?
| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | I guess I am a Buddhist to an extent, since I accept the four noble truths. |
Buddhism is a strange "religion", if one can really call it that. It's not something I believe, it's something I do.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4954
Local time: 7:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| A_Atheist_named_Christian wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Theists bother with POE because it is an obvious question that has to be answered |
It's not obvious and it doesn't have to be answered.
"Evil" is only a problem for people who presuppose all powerful, all loving, all knowing daddies. |
Evil is a problem for any people who have empathy. With or without a creator, some of us are bothered about and believe that evil can be harnessed and ultimately almost nil. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| WisdomManiac91 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Very wrong on the latter. Many Christians see babies as totally pure and not capable of sin until a certain age or maturity. |
Did you know that until John Paul II changed the traditional belief, according to Catholic doctrine, all babies/infants who died went straight to Hell (if they were unbaptized)? The reason: They were unable to accept Christ, because they were not old enough to understand his message. Fortunately, John Paul changed that so that babies who died only went to Purgatory for a while, and then went to Heaven.
Plus, some Christian denominations accept the belief that children are born with the sins of their parents, and so they baptize them, to cleanse them of all sins. |
I don't want to make this a big issue but rather helpful knowledge for you. Catholics never believed in a hell for infants who were unbaptized. Recently the idea of Limbo was changed by this latest pope. Limbo is no way close to hell and was where unbaptized innocents went to. Those innocents were older than just babies.
Purgatory is for the older Catholics who would be considered past the age of innocence and has nothing to do with baptism. |
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WisdomManiac91
Forum Plebian
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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There are also those who believe that the idea of Limbo is heretical and that ALL who are unbaptized go to Hell.
See here.
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"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past."
--George Santayana
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit."
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | The latest FOX News poll finds that more than nine in 10 Americans (91 percent) believe in God and almost as many believe in heaven (87 percent). In addition, 84 percent say they believe in miracles and 79 percent in angels.
What about the dark side? Almost three-quarters of Americans (74 percent) say they believe in hell and two-thirds in the devil (67 percent). |
And exactly how do they define hell and or the devil? That's the problem with polls. They don't ask enough questions. I think they are meaningless when it comes to religion. |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Purgatory is for the older Catholics who would be considered past the age of innocence and has nothing to do with baptism. |
Purgatory is for people who have committed cardinal sins and have been unrepentant. If one is unrepentant about a mortal sin, they go straight to hell, according to Catholic dogma.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| CET wrote: | | What school are you partial to? Rinzai, Soto, Ch'an, Shin? |
No particular school. I really only know the basics so far.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4954
Local time: 7:16 AM
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: |
Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily. |
I use the term spiritual as in believing in a deity but not religious such as myself. That there are atheists who want to be called spiritual is still a new concept to me and I wasn't assuming anything, just going by the fact of belief in a creator. If I offended you, that was not my intent at all.
| ShaSha wrote: | | No, not all of them believe in hell. |
| Quote: |
Then they are rejecting an pretty big piece of Christian Dogma. I'm a Philosopher, this would be like me rejecting logic.
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Says you.  That it doesn't make sense to you is not important to what my point is. It is their life, their beliefs and they have the right to discuss what they want without second guessing by anybody.
| Quote: |
The hell of the fundies is different from the hell of the Catholic Theologians who view hell as mental anguish and eternal separation from God. Regardless, my point still stands.
(Snipped)
Thats doesn't matter. All this means is that Christians and Muslims betray their own theology. The fact remains, the bible teaches us that we are all sinners, end of story. Many Christians don't like this, so they cherry pick. They delude themselves into thinking the Bible is a warm funny "love thy neighbor" book, but conveniently miss the atrocities. |
No, delusion isn't part of it. It really is part of the teachings of those who don't take the bible literally. Those people don't need your permission or mine to practice as they see fit. For someone who is a philosopher, I'm surprised you don't understand that you can't corral people into one common mind set. If that were true, then there would be only one philosopher in history.
Thanks for your other replies also. I believe I answered similar thoughts on other posts. |
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3021
Local time: 1:16 PM
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Pastors Struggle with POE. |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | In fact that is how many people become atheists like you or spirtual people like myself. |
Why are you assuming i'm not spiritual? I do Buddhist meditations daily. |
Cool! How long have you been practicing? |
A while now. I don't sit in the recommended position, for it hurts my legs, but I sit in a comfortable position, close my eyes, clear my mind and concentrate on either my breathing or my own consciousness. I guess I am a Buddhist to an extent, since I accept the four noble truths. |
That's quite interesting. The Rick Copeland used to practice Zen mediatation avidly and even went of seshin. He even had a couple of very interesting realizations while practicing. The he just dropped it. He has had a real itching to take it back up as he looks back at that period and finds that he was most likely much happier in that time. It's very difficult. Much more so than it sounds... It's also very difficult (impossible?) to avoid the trap of trying to intellectualize it...
The Rick Copeland finds Zen Buddhism and atheism very compatible...
If you went into you self-imposed IG exile before the Charles Goodman shows Reggie did, you might want to track those two episodes down. The Rick Copeland would be interested in hearing your remarks regarding the Buddhist concept of the self...
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