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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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Local time: 5:21 PM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| rock wrote: | | Nimitz wrote: | | Quote: | | Isn't this kind of silly? :O |
Reminds me of the debate between ninjas and pirates.
We all know pirates are way cooler than ninjas! |
Fuck yeah!
And yeah this is just some silly crap with pop-culture trying to create labels for "us" so they can group us. Which I have no problem with, until it comes to such a huge vagueness as atheist or theist. In pop-culture atheist seems to mean anti-religion naturalist.
I'm starting to get real sick of this kind of super-pro tolerance position where god forbid we take a stance on anything other than total tolerance. I tolerate your right to have beliefs. I don't tolerate your "right" to have unquestionable beliefs.
God I hate these stupid liberal intolerant tolerance police. |
I wouldn't blame this on liberals. It's part of a much larger social distortion affecting all sides that began in the torpor of WW1 and is only now beginning to weaken. I'm talking about postmodernism and deconstructionism, both of which are faces of nihilism.
An example from the 'other side' is that the same type of argument used by confused left-wingers to support a weird and bloated infinite tolerance appears to be the predominant theme of 'intellectual' (in reality anti-intellectual) discourse of Christian conservative defense, namely that since no one knows anything for sure then everyone is allowed to believe whatever he wants. By the same token, the foundational stance of infinite tolerance is: Since ethics is purely subjective and does not and cannot have a coherent basis then all forms of culture are equal and so all cultural critiques of any kind are misguided.
To me it's fascinating that the far right wing and the far left wing (at least as they are typically defined in the western world) have the same philosophical basis of pointlessness. It's pointless to debate merits, pointless to assert quality, pointless to draw distinctions. This is THE curse of our times: nothing makes sense, so anything goes.
EDIT: "Anything Goes" as Cole Porter observed in 1934.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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Castaa
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
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Local time: 11:21 PM
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm kind of split on the issue. I find it deeply revolting that we (society) let magical religious thinking dictate debates that result in actions that lead to needless and profound human suffering.
However, telling the religious that there religious is false and there are no sound reasons to believe in personal god is like telling them that their children don't love them anymore. It maybe objectively true to an impartial observer but the parent is going to hate you for even suggesting such a horrible idea. I believe this is almost exactly the same reaction the religious have to atheists speaking what we believe is the most honest answer.
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4658
Local time: 5:21 PM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | I'm kind of split on the issue. I find it deeply revolting that we (society) let magical religious thinking dictate debates that result in actions that lead to needless and profound human suffering.
However, telling the religious that there religious is false and there are no sound reasons to believe in personal god is like telling them that their children don't love them anymore. It maybe objectively true to an impartial observer but the parent is going to hate you for even suggesting such a horrible idea. I believe this is almost exactly the same reaction the religious have to atheists speaking what we believe is the most honest answer. |
Why do the religious act so harshly against naysayers? In my opinion it is because you are threating their lives, literally, if they believe in an eternal life coming to them because of their belief.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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Castaa
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
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Local time: 11:21 PM
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | Castaa wrote: | I'm kind of split on the issue. I find it deeply revolting that we (society) let magical religious thinking dictate debates that result in actions that lead to needless and profound human suffering.
However, telling the religious that there religious is false and there are no sound reasons to believe in personal god is like telling them that their children don't love them anymore. It maybe objectively true to an impartial observer but the parent is going to hate you for even suggesting such a horrible idea. I believe this is almost exactly the same reaction the religious have to atheists speaking what we believe is the most honest answer. |
Why do the religious act so harshly against naysayers? In my opinion it is because you are threating their lives, literally, if they believe in an eternal life coming to them because of their belief. |
There in lies the thorns of the problem. Usually it cannot be rationally argued and it usually provokes a strong emotional response in theists. None of these realities are our fault or creation yet this dynamic constantly exists. This is the crux of the real debate between atheists, I think. What to do with this emotional problem we face? This is the problem that has nothing to do with rational arguments anymore. I think many strong anti-theist atheists fail to fully recognize or accept this problem because it's so difficult to deconstruct or even grasp.
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3995
Local time: 7:21 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Castaa wrote: | I'm kind of split on the issue. I find it deeply revolting that we (society) let magical religious thinking dictate debates that result in actions that lead to needless and profound human suffering.
However, telling the religious that there religious is false and there are no sound reasons to believe in personal god is like telling them that their children don't love them anymore. It maybe objectively true to an impartial observer but the parent is going to hate you for even suggesting such a horrible idea. I believe this is almost exactly the same reaction the religious have to atheists speaking what we believe is the most honest answer. |
Why do the religious act so harshly against naysayers? In my opinion it is because you are threating their lives, literally, if they believe in an eternal life coming to them because of their belief. |
There in lies the thorns of the problem. Usually it cannot be rationally argued and it usually provokes a strong emotional response in theists. None of these realities are our fault or creation yet this dynamic constantly exists. This is the crux of the real debate between atheists, I think. What to do with this emotional problem we face? This is the problem that has nothing to do with rational arguments anymore. I think many strong anti-theist atheists fail to fully recognize or accept this problem because it's so difficult to deconstruct or even grasp. |
I just posted something in another thread about how theists (in this case creationists) approach evidence to the contrary of their beliefs. At least how it strikes me while I'm talking with them:
| I wrote: | | It sometimes strikes me as if people who believe stuff like creationism or Noah's flood are not really taken aback by the fact that they are not able to really justify these beliefs by using evidence and reason and logic. That is not what makes them tick somehow. Sure, they have constructed some vague rationalisations in their minds, but that is literally the end of it. They are for ever sufficient and the objections we tend to raise against these rationalisations are just regarded as petty bickering. More of a nuiscanse than a threat to their ideas. Perhaps that is why creationists tend to ignore the arguments they get and just keep repeating the same refuted stuff over and over again. They will profess sometimes that their ideas are scientific and that they really have evidence for their beliefs but when it comes down to it it is just a sideshow for them. It is not what they really care about and they seem to be just going through the motions. |
Extrapolating on that I think it is possible that for many theists, whatever threatenes their emotional world is just sumarilly dismissed. Which is perfectly justified in their eyes.
Gerard
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But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
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Nimitz
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Local time: 5:21 PM
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Many take it as a personal attack. Those are deeply cherished ideas. Not well thought out, but beloved none the less. Any perceived slight angers them. They base their lives on it. |
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Castaa
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 2211
Local time: 11:21 PM
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ya I agree Gerard. Creationists are maybe the ultimate display of cognitive dissonance. Ardent creationists are just another form of conspiracy theorists at their core.
If we want to be effective, we should all be combing over ideas that thwart the problems of cognitive dissonance and true-believer syndrome. Not easy, I know. |
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