Conversations with a Christian friend.

lumpymunk

I had a conversation with a christian man last night (A decon at a baptists church) and I think it was remarkably productive for him. This isn't anything new but I feel like I reached him in a way that I normally don't reach people.

We went back and forth for about 3 hours and the subject of the New Testament came up and he asserted that the new testament was a revision of the old testament and that many of the criticisms atheists offer up about the old testament are clearly revoked later in the New testament and by virtue of it being a more recent document about the misconceptions of the old testament, it is more valid and simultaneously invalidates arguements about christianity involving a critical look at the old testament.

A few thing struck me as odd immediately. The plethora of double standards presented in this mans statements was overwhelming at first, but I nibbled away until I got a good hold of what we were really talking about.

I pointed out that interpreting certain passages as literal and valid, and discarding others was rejecting the word of god as he's presented it to you. Furthermore I elaborated that the standard with which he chooses to interpret some verses allagorically and others as literal was completely subjective and only fluctuates as the cultural current that surrounds christianity changes.

To illustrate how interpreting the bible in different ways was unfounded I mentioned a few verses in Mathew dealing with Jesus himself.

From Mathew
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This is supposed to be interpreted as allegorical and metaphorical for christians. The rationale I was given for this metaphorical interpretation was that in the bible it never directly references someone in the new testament cutting off limbs or plucking out eyes.

I responded that even though it doesn't mention it doesn't mean that the scripture here is intended to be interpreted in any certain way because the bible doesn't give us an account of how the populations of the past apply the scripture to their own lives. It's an incomplete document in terms of looking for examples of how this verse is applied to answer either way.

My main point here, that I carry forward when I reference the next piece of scripture is just the fact that both interpretations are equally valid and we have only chosen this passage to be allegorical because chopping off limbs in the culture that surrounds Christian doctrine today would consider it barbaric.

I then point out a verse later that christians tend to interpret literally. An encounter between "satan" and Jesus.

(Mat 4:1-11 NIV) Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. {2} After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. {3} The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." {4} Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" {5} Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. {6} "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" {7} Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" {8} Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. {9} "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." {10} Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" {11} Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Where this encounter takes place is very important to understanding why the literal interpretation preferred by christians is the least likely applicable interpretation. These scene is set with two characters only, Jesus and Satan in the desert with no other observers. Satan is said to be isolating Jesus to have a go at him. Yet we have this third person account of this story as though someone were there watching and were writing this down. Did jesus give this account? Did satan give this account? This was probably dicated from Jesus to someone else and carried through story to whoever wrote this down. The point I want to make is that this scripture could easily be interpreted metaphorically as well as literally.

Compare for a moment, the word Jihad and the two factions of belief in what the Jihad means for Muslims. Internal Conflict to overcome human nature to achieve divinity(metaphorical) vs. War destruction (literal). Both of those interpretations exist and lead to equally devastating consequences the former intellctual destructiveness, and the ladder physical terrorism.

Could we not easily apply this type of view to the embodiment of satan? Satan as a figure could be interpreted metaphorically to embody the baser nature of human beings (if you believe human nature to be base). Satan could embody all obstacles in life, all emotions like lust (reference earlier when discussing cutting off limbs).

Another arguement for this is to ask if the Christian believes his god to be omnipotent. If god is all powerful, what occurs that is not the will of god.. gods will includes this satanic figure. Since god is all powerful this test could easily be construed to be gods designing of human beings to be self-testing through the process of consciousness, the less desirable influences of consciousness inwardly and outwardly are the embodiment of satan, or the product of original sin.

It's no different than the two interpretations of the word Jihad throughout the Islamic faith. Christians choose to interpret the encounter between Jesus and Satan as literally because there is no barbarism or taboo currently that would make this position seem completely incompatible with life in America. The point is that both interpretations are valid, neither has any ground on the other. The point is about cherry picking... even in the New Testament, because it is not shy of it's cruel and unusual passages.

We interpret the hacking off of limbs as metaphorical and the encounter between jesus and satan as literal and we have no standard by which to differentiate which we should interpret in which way. Indeed the passage subscribing amputation was a direct quote from the mouth of jesus given in statement form... but they interpret it metaphorically. The "story" about jesus's encounter with satan in the desert was presented as a story, but we interpret it literally.

So the standard seems to present itself that we acknowledge how the bible is delivered and spin it in the opposite way now for adaptation to modern life.

We also spoke about the demographically classified belief systems of those who do charitable works, and he attempted to draw a correlation between theistic belief and charitable works using the question, "in a sample of 100 people who do charitable works how many of them do you beleive are atheists" I said between 10-20% just because that seems to be the number of secular non-christians that make up the population. It's a terrible arguement for him to present and doesn't hold water because its so abstract and so general and vague that to use that to indicate that religous people are good(better?) because most people who do charitable works are theists is a twist and a spin I wouldn't allow him.

Anyway this was productive I think, and I think he learned a lot about how his religion picks and chooses what to beleive and why. I intend on posting more conversations with others later.
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Castaa · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject:

Good job.
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