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| Is the death penatly a just law? |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimitz wrote: | Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. This made him ....
A super calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis. |
I just passed that one around the office. 
_________________
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CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
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Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Friend wrote: | | I disagree. Human subjects who've no remorse in killing innocent people, relinquish rights as a human beings. Murdering criminals become a further burden on the populace by making the populace fund a secure lifelong lifestyle. Such action only further injures the same society such murderous people inflict harm upon. The results of medical research on murderous people could potentially act as fair reparation upon all people. |
Dehumanizing a person is a very dangerous slippery slope. It gets out of hand far too easily. It creates negative kharma which taints other aspects of our lives. We become what we despise. To struggle and fight with evil is to become evil. The more you struggle with it, the more it becomes a part of you.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | This is true, but elsewhere in your post, you advocate a very high standard of proof, and this is similarly costly. In the U.S., it's actually more costly on average, and innocent people have STILL slipped through the cracks and been executed. I agree with your initial statement that in killing, they relinquish their rights, and I have no problem whatsoever with someone on the scene killing them. Where I have a problem is in trusting the government with the power to administer that type of justice. Looking at China, Iran, and North Korea, then seeing cases in the U.S. where police have extracted confessions through patently unjust means (not to mention Japan, where 98-99% of arrests result in a conviction  ) makes it all crystal clear to me that the death penalty cannot be justified in a world where corrupt, power-hungry people seek political office and jobs on police forces (which by no means implies that everybody in power has these proclivities).
Check out this episode of This American Life; it's very sobering:
http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=210
| Quote: | After a decade in which DNA evidence has freed over 100 people nationwide, it's become clear that DNA evidence isn't just proving wrongdoing by criminals, it's proving wrongdoing by police and prosecutors. In this show, we look at what DNA has revealed to us: how police get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit and how they get witnesses to pin crimes on innocent people. There have always been suspicions that these kinds of things take place. With DNA, there's finally irrefutable proof.
Prologue.
Host Ira Glass surveys the effects DNA has had on the criminal justice landscape. He talks with Huy Dao, at the Innocence Project, where they are waist-deep in 2,000 letters from prisoners claiming DNA can prove them innocent. Charlotte Word at Cellmark Diagnostics, the largest and oldest private DNA forensics lab in the country, explains how their caseload is expanding into all sorts of new areas like insurance claims and medical malpractice suits. John Stanton, a detective in Arlington, Texas, recently opened up over 49 old unsolved cases, to see if DNA might be successful where old methods weren't. One case he reopened: the very first case he went on himself as a young crime scene officer in 1985. And finally, Chicago Tribune investigative reporter Maurice Possley explains that DNA has shed so much doubt on the criminal justice system in Illinois that now prosecutors and judges are reopening questionable cases that don't even have DNA evidence. (6 minutes)
Act One. Hawks and Rabbits.
This is the story of some teenagers who were wrongfully convicted of murder and served 15 years in prison. DNA set them free, then convicted the two men who really did the crime. Shane DuBow reports on how the police framed them with the crime in the first place, and what it's like to be in prison when you know you're innocent. (37 minutes)
Act Two. Snitch.
The story of how common and perfectly legal police interrogation procedures, procedures without violence or torture, were able to get an average fourteen-year-old suburban kid to confess to murdering his own sister ... even though DNA evidence later proved that he hadn't done the crime. (12 minutes) |
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And yet the governor of Illinois was ridiculed for being a pinko hippy for commuting all of death-row to LWOP (Life WithOut Parole).
Thanks for this post Eye. I'll definitely be checking this out when I get a chunk of time.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | who says i am throwing the baby out with the bath water?
seriously though Ghandi used non violence and won, but during WWII we used violence and crushed the fascists. we can't just rule out violence here. tell me, would you use Ghandi's philosophy with regard to rapists and pedophiles? (I have read your posts where you say if you even meet one you'd kill em, so I bt your answer is no. |
I have a very strong urge to kill those people, but it doesn't mean I actually would. There is a very good chance that I might rough them up a bit though. 
| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | anyway I am all for revenge. I think of it like a debt. if you do me a favor, I ow you one in return. if you cause me harm, I owe you some harm in return.
if you punch me in the nose, I will punch you in the nose. seems only fair to me. |
Revenge is not constructive, it is destructive. Nothing good comes out of revenge. Just take a good look at the middle-east. |
that's an extreme. if you punch me in the nose I am gonna punch you back, not declare jihad and kill you, all your family and friends and neighbors. |
But where does it end. You say it ends when you have your revenge. The other person has now been punched, and feels that in order to get you to submit, he has to punch you in the nose AND stomp your toes. Now you're one down again, and you have to get revenge. But he ducks your punch and steps back as you try to stomp his toes. He has escaped "justice" and you HAVE to have your revenge, so you pursue him with a 2x4 figuring that one good whack will settle things up.
Where does this scenario end? Even if it never escalates, it doesn't end. Even if it does end, what good came from it?
I'm not saying there aren't times where violence isn't necessary. If someone attacks me, then I will do whatever it takes to defend myself. If I see someone else being attacked, I will do whatever it takes to help that person out. However, we tend to want to resort to it far too quickly. It should really be a last step measure, not the first knee-jerk reaction.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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hillbillyatheist
Administrator
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 15983
Local time: 2:58 AM
Location: Denver Colorado.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | anyway I am all for revenge. I think of it like a debt. if you do me a favor, I ow you one in return. if you cause me harm, I owe you some harm in return.
if you punch me in the nose, I will punch you in the nose. seems only fair to me. |
Revenge is not constructive, it is destructive. Nothing good comes out of revenge. Just take a good look at the middle-east. |
that's an extreme. if you punch me in the nose I am gonna punch you back, not declare jihad and kill you, all your family and friends and neighbors. |
But where does it end. |
depends on the situation. there have been situations where I have determined that revenge would only make the situation worse, and other situations where I have determined that teaching the fucker a lesson will make my life easier. this is not an either or, nor an always or a never. sometimes peo0ple will push you around if they know they can get away with it, and that is where it is wise to let them know you won't be their doormat. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | But where does it end. |
depends on the situation. there have been situations where I have determined that revenge would only make the situation worse, and other situations where I have determined that teaching the fucker a lesson will make my life easier. this is not an either or, nor an always or a never. sometimes peo0ple will push you around if they know they can get away with it, and that is where it is wise to let them know you won't be their doormat. |
Suppose instead of this person punching you in the nose, they attacked your mom or your sister. If you've already got yourself programmed that you have to get revenge and make things "even", what happens then?
The point is, this is programming for destruction. How about a constructive solution? I don't know what that solution is, but suppose there is one. What would it be?
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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hillbillyatheist
Administrator
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 15983
Local time: 2:58 AM
Location: Denver Colorado.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | But where does it end. |
depends on the situation. there have been situations where I have determined that revenge would only make the situation worse, and other situations where I have determined that teaching the fucker a lesson will make my life easier. this is not an either or, nor an always or a never. sometimes peo0ple will push you around if they know they can get away with it, and that is where it is wise to let them know you won't be their doormat. |
Suppose instead of this person punching you in the nose, they attacked your mom or your sister. If you've already got yourself programmed that you have to get revenge and make things "even", what happens then? |
the law will do the revenge for me in that case, and hopefully kill the motherfucker. I got no problems with the death penalty. at the very least he will be locked in jail for the rest of his life. so revenge in this case is not necessary and will only make things worse for you. in this situation I would deem taking revenge irrational, and will instead let the government do my dirty work.  |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | Check out this episode of This American Life; it's very sobering:
http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=210
| Quote: | After a decade in which DNA evidence has freed over 100 people nationwide, it's become clear that DNA evidence isn't just proving wrongdoing by criminals, it's proving wrongdoing by police and prosecutors. In this show, we look at what DNA has revealed to us: how police get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit and how they get witnesses to pin crimes on innocent people. There have always been suspicions that these kinds of things take place. With DNA, there's finally irrefutable proof.
Prologue.
Host Ira Glass surveys the effects DNA has had on the criminal justice landscape. He talks with Huy Dao, at the Innocence Project, where they are waist-deep in 2,000 letters from prisoners claiming DNA can prove them innocent. Charlotte Word at Cellmark Diagnostics, the largest and oldest private DNA forensics lab in the country, explains how their caseload is expanding into all sorts of new areas like insurance claims and medical malpractice suits. John Stanton, a detective in Arlington, Texas, recently opened up over 49 old unsolved cases, to see if DNA might be successful where old methods weren't. One case he reopened: the very first case he went on himself as a young crime scene officer in 1985. And finally, Chicago Tribune investigative reporter Maurice Possley explains that DNA has shed so much doubt on the criminal justice system in Illinois that now prosecutors and judges are reopening questionable cases that don't even have DNA evidence. (6 minutes)
Act One. Hawks and Rabbits.
This is the story of some teenagers who were wrongfully convicted of murder and served 15 years in prison. DNA set them free, then convicted the two men who really did the crime. Shane DuBow reports on how the police framed them with the crime in the first place, and what it's like to be in prison when you know you're innocent. (37 minutes)
Act Two. Snitch.
The story of how common and perfectly legal police interrogation procedures, procedures without violence or torture, were able to get an average fourteen-year-old suburban kid to confess to murdering his own sister ... even though DNA evidence later proved that he hadn't done the crime. (12 minutes) |
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I just finished listening to this. You're right, it's very sobering.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12844
Local time: 11:58 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | But where does it end. |
depends on the situation. there have been situations where I have determined that revenge would only make the situation worse, and other situations where I have determined that teaching the fucker a lesson will make my life easier. this is not an either or, nor an always or a never. sometimes peo0ple will push you around if they know they can get away with it, and that is where it is wise to let them know you won't be their doormat. |
Suppose instead of this person punching you in the nose, they attacked your mom or your sister. If you've already got yourself programmed that you have to get revenge and make things "even", what happens then? |
the law will do the revenge for me in that case, and hopefully kill the motherfucker. I got no problems with the death penalty. at the very least he will be locked in jail for the rest of his life. so revenge in this case is not necessary and will only make things worse for you. in this situation I would deem taking revenge irrational, and will instead let the government do my dirty work. |
After a life time of programming yourself to act on revenge, would you be able to override that programming in such an extreme situation? I think the situations in Africa and the middle-east suggests that is not the case. They are locked into a never-ending revenge cycle.
What about more constructive solutions? Isn't it possible that there is a constructive solution that would work? If so, why not use it? What good would revenge do then?
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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hillbillyatheist
Administrator
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 15983
Local time: 2:58 AM
Location: Denver Colorado.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | But where does it end. |
depends on the situation. there have been situations where I have determined that revenge would only make the situation worse, and other situations where I have determined that teaching the fucker a lesson will make my life easier. this is not an either or, nor an always or a never. sometimes peo0ple will push you around if they know they can get away with it, and that is where it is wise to let them know you won't be their doormat. |
Suppose instead of this person punching you in the nose, they attacked your mom or your sister. If you've already got yourself programmed that you have to get revenge and make things "even", what happens then? |
the law will do the revenge for me in that case, and hopefully kill the motherfucker. I got no problems with the death penalty. at the very least he will be locked in jail for the rest of his life. so revenge in this case is not necessary and will only make things worse for you. in this situation I would deem taking revenge irrational, and will instead let the government do my dirty work. |
After a life time of programming yourself to act on revenge, would you be able to override that programming in such an extreme situation? |
who says I am programed? I am a weird person who does not take revenge out of anger. when i take revenge it is because I have determined after some thought that this is the best way to deal with a problem. in the case you mentioned above, I believe that the best way to deal with it is to let the cops handle it.
| Quote: | | I think the situations in Africa and the middle-east suggests that is not the case. They are locked into a never-ending revenge cycle. |
islam is violent, all must submit to allah or die. they will never have peace until they rid themselves of this despicable religion. just my humble opinion.
| Quote: | | What about more constructive solutions? Isn't it possible that there is a constructive solution that would work? If so, why not use it? What good would revenge do then? |
again depends on the situation. lets play a game, you give me a scenario and I will give you what I would do. I will not say never or always, not make this an either/or situation. each situation will differ in how it should be handled. |
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sunamiren
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| Citizen X wrote: | | redraiderdude187 wrote: | | What do you think? |
I am 100% in favor of the death penalty, but not in its current legislative form.
| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | While most may think that the death penalty delivers justice in the surest manner, the law remains as an inhumane remnant of a more barbaric era, and reflects poorly not only on our government, but on the permissiveness of our population en bloc. While many may argue, “If one kills another, then doesn’t he/she deserve to die in the first place?”; even though this seems as a coherent thought pattern on the surface, but the overall logic of the statement is flawed. (Counter-Argument) For instance, if a person stole from another, would the government serve justice correctly if they stole from the thief? The obvious answer in this situation is “no.” Therefore if the same logic applied comprehensively, then how does one justify the death penalty? |
Poor counter argument. Stealing one's "things" is much different than taking one's life. Food, cars, money, jewelry, things, all may be replaced. Life may not be replaced. Life is lost in many different ways, but when one feels obliged to take another's life, and the evidence suggests that the act was pre-meditated, was self gratifying, and was not provoked, what right should that individual have to continue their existence? I do not believe that killing someone automatically makes you a candidate for the death penalty, and I do not believe that an individual found guilty of murder based solely on circumstantial evidence should be put to death. But I do believe that individuals such as Dahmer and Gacy, in which there is practically 0 doubt that they committed the crime, should be put to death immediately after being found guilty in a court of law.
| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | Others may argue that certain grievous crimes deserve the death penalty, but if a person commits a crime or crimes so grievous such as serial murder, are they not to some level, psychotically insane? Therefore, how can our government put a person to death who does not think sanely? Does this person not deserve to be committed to some sort of mental sanatorium? As one may see, the entire argument for this case of the death penalty relies on humans’ ability to show compassion to their fellow man, and the entire process of the death penalty completely suspends the ability for humans to show compassion to each other. |
Do you give respect to every individual you meet, or does someone have to earn your respect? I'm not trying to say that everyone does not deserve a little compassion, but to a certain degree, compassion should also be earned. I have compassion for all of those starving kids that I used to see on TV. I have compassion for individuals brought up in poverty that have such a difficult time just putting food on their table and a roof over their head. In fact, I have compassion for most every living thing on this planet (except mosquitos). But when an individual turns violent, again, depending on the circumstances behind their violence (which is why we have a court of law), I begin to lose my compassion.
| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | So, if America deems itself the trendsetter in civilization and morals, how can we rationalize using basically state-sponsored killing? These actions do not exemplify a civilized and cultured nation. |
I disagree. Putting individuals to death, such as Dahmer and Gacy, does 2 things: first, it removes an individual from existence that was a danger to society; and second, it humanely removes this individual from existence as opposed to barbaricly keeping them behind bars for their entire life, which in many cases is decades. Personally, if I was ever found guilty of murder, I would much rather be put to death than to live a long life behind bars. The latter, in my opinion, is much more barbaric.
| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | The death penalty also leaves no room for the innocence of a defendant; for instance, if a jury convicts someone of murder and the person is given the death penalty, they have only a limited period of time for the appeals process, thus hindering the person’s right to trial. A very sufficient case could be made for this being a complete violation of one’s Constitutional rights. Imagine yourself being complete innocent of a crime, and a judge sentences you to death for a murder you did not commit. How would you feel? Would you feel as if you had been humanely treated by your government? On the other hand, if a judge sentenced you to life in prison, you know you would have a very good chance to prove your innocence in a different trial under an appeal. |
This is the real argument, which is why I disagree with the death penalty in its current state. I believe the law should be "updated" so as to refute certain circumstances from being punishable by death.
Last year, my cousin was put to death in Indiana. He had broken into an 82 year old womans house to get some money. When he realized she was there, he knocked her down, and stomped her to death. He then caught the house on fire and fled the scene. He later completely confessed to this crime, although he always suggested that there was someone with him at the time. He had very little remorse for this crime for nearly a decade. It wasn't until he found Jesus that he suddenly had remorse for stomping this poor woman to death.
I have compassion for the woman he killed. I have compassion for her family. I have compassion for my uncle and aunt who had to live with the fact that their son killed a woman so brutally, and that they had to relive this horrible moment everytime the anniversiary of the death reappeared and the newspaper wrote about the killing again. I have compassion for my other cousins who had to live with the fact that their brother killed a woman so brutally. Do I have compassion for my cousin who did the killing? It took time, but yes, I do have compassion for him. But I still strongly believe that he deserved the death penalty. No honest, hard working, individual deserves to have their life taken from them in such a brutal manner. An individual such as my cousin, deserved to be completely removed from society for the rest of his life, and hold the opinion that once he committed such a heinous act, he forfeited his right to live. |
I could not vote as there is no room for what CitizenX says here regarding quote: I believe the law should be "updated" so as to refute certain circumstances from being punishable by death.
end quote.
I totally agree with you here CX..... I have not read all the threads as I am in a hurry, and about to leave. This subject caught my attention. If the killer, as in your cousin, admits to the crime, if the guy who likes to chop up people, or eat them, admits to the crime, I feel the death penalty is the only option for these people.
How many times have we seen child abusers, murderers let out of prison only to re -offend, or murder again? If these people are absolutely guilty by "self admission" and/or absolute proof, we don't need these in society.
I don't believe in wasting Govt money on murderers, to keep them inside for life. What for? so that they can suffer? A lot of them, so mentally deranged, don't suffer on the inside. Nor are they able to be healed, perhaps some, but not all. If they find Jesus, and learn to repent, or feel remorse, then so be it. Pity they didn't seek Jesus before they killed if that's what it takes.
All you said, I felt was well said. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Death Penalty: Just or Unjust? |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | After a life time of programming yourself to act on revenge, would you be able to override that programming in such an extreme situation? |
who says I am programed? I am a weird person who does not take revenge out of anger. when i take revenge it is because I have determined after some thought that this is the best way to deal with a problem. in the case you mentioned above, I believe that the best way to deal with it is to let the cops handle it. |
Everything you do programs you. Gautama Buddha called it kharma. When you do destructive things, your character is altered (even slightly) and you become more destructive. When you do constructive things, your character is altered and you become more constructive.
| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I think the situations in Africa and the middle-east suggests that is not the case. They are locked into a never-ending revenge cycle. |
islam is violent, all must submit to allah or die. they will never have peace until they rid themselves of this despicable religion. just my humble opinion. |
Islam certainly throws fuel on the fire, but it is not the only contributing factor.
What do many of the Palestinians, Israelis, African guerrillas, etc., have to say? Usually something to the effect of, "I am taking revenge upon them for doing [insert atrocity here] to my [insert friend/family member name here]." This is where revenge leads us.
| hillbillyatheist wrote: | | CET wrote: | | What about more constructive solutions? Isn't it possible that there is a constructive solution that would work? If so, why not use it? What good would revenge do then? |
again depends on the situation. lets play a game, you give me a scenario and I will give you what I would do. I will not say never or always, not make this an either/or situation. each situation will differ in how it should be handled. |
These questions are rhetoric, and are not meant to be answered. They are to keep and ponder from time to time. I've amazed myself at the creative solutions I've been able to come up with in most all the aspects of my life and my ethical view of the world.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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