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WashMDJD
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 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Military lawsuit in Kansas |
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Yet another atheist with the balls to sue the U.S. military for its unconstitutional proselytizing of evangelical Christianity - again from Kansas. It's 16 pages long, but well-worth the read - particularly the 'facts' of the alleged abuses.
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/urgent%20_issues/complain_sept08.pdf
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chookrooter
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Fascinating reading.
What realistic chances does the guy have of (a) winning and (b) remaining in the military with his career unaffected?
Generally speaking,no armed forces anywhere encourage individual thought or action. Members,especially combat troops are distrustful of anyone obviously "different." It's not about beliefs per se, but about being seen as a trustworthy part of the group.
When I was drafted , I tried to have "agnostic" put on my dog tags. I was told that option was not available. |
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WashMDJD
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| chookrooter wrote: | Fascinating reading.
What realistic chances does the guy have of (a) winning and (b) remaining in the military with his career unaffected?
Generally speaking,no armed forces anywhere encourage individual thought or action. Members,especially combat troops are distrustful of anyone obviously "different." It's not about beliefs per se, but about being seen as a trustworthy part of the group.
When I was drafted , I tried to have "agnostic" put on my dog tags. I was told that option was not available. |
On a legal basis, I think the soldier has a strong claim, but then again, I'm routinely shocked at some of the church-state decisions courts hand down. I think our national jurisprudence on religion in public life is radically incorrect, and I place the blame squarely on two factors: the move to democritize courts by making judges elected officials responsive to an electorate instead of life-tenured appointed positions, and the strong influence of conservative Christianity in our public square. In order to avoid pissing off an overwhelming portion of the country that thinks there's nothing wrong with forcing people to pray in public schools, the courts have had to chart a narrow path between what I think is the correct jurisprudence and one which openly embraces Christianity. They've done this largely by claiming that most religious-seeming phenomena in the public square are, in fact, not religious at all, but are merely expressions of a purely symbolic deism. While this means that the 'God' on American money isn't the God of Christianity at all, this fact doesn't register in the minds of the devout, and they claim victory - when in reality it is more like a mutual loss.
The government's official position when it comes to religious orthodoxy must, by necessity, be "no comment" when it comes to giving meaning to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. If this soldier's allegations are correct, then the government went well beyond the "no comment" level and was actively encouraging a particular brand of religion.
That said, there are two pragmatic considerations here: First, the same conservative values that inform our religious jurisprudence now are especially strong in Kansas (my old home state) - we're the ones after all who had the big flap when our state school board voted to "de-emphasize" the teaching of evolution. Whichever judge gets assigned this case is going to likely be steeped in these values from head to toe and will more than likely find some way to justify most of it or restrict the relief sought to some minor penalty as opposed to an injunction to stop the practices, military-wide. Secondly, countervailing that, the attorney representing the fellow is one of the single best civil rights attorneys on the Plains. When somebody's facing discrimination or the like, Pedro's the one you call, and he gets the job done.
So it's up in the air. Somehow, though, I don't see it likely that the 10th circuit district court judge in Kansas is going to find for the young man in this case. It'll likely have to be taken up by the 10th circuit court of appeals after a judgment against him - that's my prediction anyway.
_________________
"Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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Hit_me_up024
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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good the military needs to move out of that holy roller shit
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Kosh
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| chookrooter wrote: |
When I was drafted , I tried to have "agnostic" put on my dog tags. I was told that option was not available. |
What kind of an army do you speak of? My dog tags (and that goes for everybody who has served) only has a name and a number.
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chookrooter
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What kind of an army do you speak of? My dog tags (and that goes for everybody who has served) only has a name and a number. |
Australian.
I served with the First Battalian, Royal Australian Regiment. OK,it WAS almost 40 years ago. I may be mistaken about what was on my dog tags,and made the assumption because I WAS told that "agnostic" was not choice for one's religion.
I'm not sure where the tags are now. I think I gave them to my little brother who was 12 when I got home. I'll see if I can get hold of them and check. |
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Kosh
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| chookrooter wrote: | | Quote: | | What kind of an army do you speak of? My dog tags (and that goes for everybody who has served) only has a name and a number. |
Australian.
I served with the First Battalian, Royal Australian Regiment. OK,it WAS almost 40 years ago. I may be mistaken about what was on my dog tags,and made the assumption because I WAS told that "agnostic" was not choice for one's religion.
I'm not sure where the tags are now. I think I gave them to my little brother who was 12 when I got home. I'll see if I can get hold of them and check. |
Ok, it just seemed odd to me that ones religion would be written in ones dog tags.
_________________
"God is an invention of Man. So the nature of God is a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of man." - Nanrei Kobori
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kosh wrote: | | chookrooter wrote: | | Quote: | | What kind of an army do you speak of? My dog tags (and that goes for everybody who has served) only has a name and a number. |
Australian.
I served with the First Battalian, Royal Australian Regiment. OK,it WAS almost 40 years ago. I may be mistaken about what was on my dog tags,and made the assumption because I WAS told that "agnostic" was not choice for one's religion.
I'm not sure where the tags are now. I think I gave them to my little brother who was 12 when I got home. I'll see if I can get hold of them and check. |
Ok, it just seemed odd to me that ones religion would be written in ones dog tags. |
its so that they know which burial rites to give you, even out in the field.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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SvZurich
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Mine said Southern Baptist back in the day. /spits
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Kosh
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Kosh wrote: | | chookrooter wrote: | | Quote: | | What kind of an army do you speak of? My dog tags (and that goes for everybody who has served) only has a name and a number. |
Australian.
I served with the First Battalian, Royal Australian Regiment. OK,it WAS almost 40 years ago. I may be mistaken about what was on my dog tags,and made the assumption because I WAS told that "agnostic" was not choice for one's religion.
I'm not sure where the tags are now. I think I gave them to my little brother who was 12 when I got home. I'll see if I can get hold of them and check. |
Ok, it just seemed odd to me that ones religion would be written in ones dog tags. |
its so that they know which burial rites to give you, even out in the field. |
Well our system is different then as we tend to bring our dead home to be buried. It's propably a legacy from the Winter- and Continuation wars.
EDIT: And we have all the information needed on the civil records, so all which is needed is ones number to determine the choice of poison.
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"God is an invention of Man. So the nature of God is a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of man." - Nanrei Kobori
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell |
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chookrooter
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well our system is different then as we tend to bring our dead home to be buried |
So do we.This practice only began with the Vietnam war,in Australia AND America. |
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