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PJS
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Recently I watched a lecture/discussion led by Max Hastings on Book TV on his recent work which delves into the dropping of the A-bombs. In the link, a book critic takes him to task for ignoring historical evidence that refutes Hasting's view that the bombs were justified. I have not read the book, but thought the review might be of interest here.
http://www.amazon.com/Retribution-Battle-1944-45-Max-Hastings/dp/0307263517/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221689150&sr=1-1
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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The problem was:
The US had no problem with the Emperor remaining Emperor, but wanted the surrender to be unconditional - completely unconditional. So unconditional that if the US actually wanted to remove the Emperor they could, even though they didn't care to.
The Japanese government wanted two things: that the Emperor remain on the throne, and that there be no repraisals against Japanese civilians. They kept on offering "surrender with two conditions". The conditions were conditions were conditions that the US was going to grant, but that meant the surrender wasn't unconditional, that the US accepted a conditional surrender.
The US doesn't accept conditional surrenders, only unconditional.
That's why there wasn't peace before the nukes.
After the nukes the Emperor of Japan decided that stepping down and repraisals were a small price to pay compared to the vaporizing of whole cities. Then he discovered he wasn't going to step down and the only repraisals would be Marines on Okinawan school girls.
The US wanted to grant what the Japanese were asking for, but they wanted to grant it from the position of "we are generous enough to give it to you" instead of "you negotiated this from us." A pretty petty reason to extend the war two additional years and then nuke two cities.
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With all due respect, |
which is none. nobody should ever respect an anonymous person... unlesss they are "Anonymous" from 4chan
| Quote: | | I think you miss my point. The point is the Soviet invasion perhaps didn't cause the Japanese to surrender. Instead, it caused the US to accept the Japanese surrender proposal. |
hmm. I dont think so because prior to they gave the surrender terms
| Quote: | | I think you miss my point. The point is the Soviet invasion perhaps didn't cause the Japanese to surrender. Instead, it caused the US to accept the Japanese surrender proposal. |
kind of stupid... lay out terms.. then do such devastation and then they surrender almost to any terms at all...but the states might still turn around and say "Not good enough?" That would be pretty damn petty...
| Quote: | | You seem to contradict yourself. There weren't surrender proposals ... even if there were. |
Not a contradiction at all. I said there werent any surrender proposals. That is to say nothing before the big one that was accepted. I then say "even if there was" which is kind of like "hypothetically" even if there were they were going to accept it until the terms were met.
| Quote: | The Japanese had been communicating through Moscow since the spring of '45. The sticking point was the status of the Emperor after the surrender. You then state the US had established they weren't going to change the terms. But the point is, they did. The Emperor remained. Why?
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Hmm my bad. I'm just reading up now. I was wrong. There was some surrender proposals but they were all in contradiction with the already provided terms... which in my opinion are HIGHLY good terms. REALLY REALLY good terms.
| Quote: | | You also mention the Japanese were ready to fight it out. So they were willing to fight it out against the Soviets - a new threat, but destroying yet another city was a game-changer? Was the Soviet invasion more significant to the Japanese or the US? I've always felt the nuclear bomb explanation was just a touch too convenient and self-serving. Looky here, we've developed a tremendous new weapon that ENDED THE WAR, so it's OK we dropped it. Plus that, the war ended on OUR TERMS. We did it. |
LEts say the USA closes it's borders... puts military troops all along the mexican border. Then puts out terms of surrender for mexico. Mexico laughs the terms off.. they goto war. they fight fight fight... then the USA gets a crazy leader and they nuke a few cities... Know what... I dont care who you are in Mexico... you are going to surrender to nuclear weapons.
Now add on general ignorance of what nuclear bombs are... nobody seen them before... they just know that the enemy has the power to obliterate your cities and you cant defend your people. You are going to surrender also. The war wasnt going well but the military leader took control of the country and was still going out to fight.
| Quote: | | But please don't misunderstand. I'm not one who protests the dropping of the nuclear bomb while ignoring the fire-bombing. If you're a civilian burned to death there's no distinction of how it's done. |
I get to protest it all. Firebombing, chemical weapons, and nuclear.
| Quote: | | Few would disagree "morale bombing" (nuclear or conventional) was designed to produce terror. And while I very much doubt the sole purpose of dropping the bomb was to impress the Soviets. However, I do agree it was part of the equation. |
They dropped the bombs and basically lifted the veil of ULTRA-top secret. The whole world then got wind of what they could do. No other hitlers, mussolinis, or japanese variants were around to go for global conquest.
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A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: |
The US wanted to grant what the Japanese were asking for, but they wanted to grant it from the position of "we are generous enough to give it to you" instead of "you negotiated this from us." A pretty petty reason to extend the war two additional years and then nuke two cities. |
I dont think I would agree with this.
When the shit hit the fan for WW2 china/vietnam were having a shitstorm already with Japan. But the fight with the allies was pretty much confined to the countries in that area. Japan wasnt a player against the allies..
I believe it was about 1940 or so when Japan signed the pact that joined them with germany and italy.
What brought Japan into the european conflict was the attack at pearl harbour. Which the USA really wasnt part of the fight...
So really...
Japan was fighting the french, vietnam, china, USSR... they are constantly trying diplomacy but shit on it constantly... then attack neutral parties. They are very big aggressors.
They get their ass spanked hard and they are still going and are after the fight in saipan and such.
The Japanese were just diplomatic and surrendering when they were being spanked but 12 seconds later they break that and go fighting again.
So the americans demanded that all these morons who are getting japan to go fight be shut the hell down. The military of Japan gets removed and they become occupied. Cant turn around and fight more...
But they want to make their own surrender proposals which would allow them to turn around and fight again. It wasnt going to happen.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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rhubarbpie
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Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, that's a very good link. I was unaware of "Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman and the Surrender of Japan" and will request it through my library. I was also unaware of the following: "But Hastings does not tell his readers that the Senate Republican leadership was publicly attacking Truman for prolonging the war by not giving the Japanese what the State Department knew they wanted: a guarantee of the continuation of the emperorship."
I think the conflict over the status of the Emperor is fairly well documented, but I wasn't aware Senate leadership had discussed it publically.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Japanese acceptance of the Emperor's newfound lack of divinity. The Japanese maintained the Emperor must remain on the throne and be exempt from war crimes prosecution. The Emperor's reference to new weapons and saving the world seem designed to save face. However, to accept "mere mortal" status does seem like a major concession to me. Perhaps the book you mentioned will explain it. Thank you again for the reference. |
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PJS
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 937
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Location: Clearwater,Fl.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| rhubarbpie wrote: |
Thank you, that's a very good link. I was unaware of "Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman and the Surrender of Japan" and will request it through my library. I was also unaware of the following: "But Hastings does not tell his readers that the Senate Republican leadership was publicly attacking Truman for prolonging the war by not giving the Japanese what the State Department knew they wanted: a guarantee of the continuation of the emperorship."
I think the conflict over the status of the Emperor is fairly well documented, but I wasn't aware Senate leadership had discussed it publically.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Japanese acceptance of the Emperor's newfound lack of divinity. The Japanese maintained the Emperor must remain on the throne and be exempt from war crimes prosecution. The Emperor's reference to new weapons and saving the world seem designed to save face. However, to accept "mere mortal" status does seem like a major concession to me. Perhaps the book you mentioned will explain it. Thank you again for the reference. |
You are welcome. The Hastings appearance on Book TV is here, in case you are interested.
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9363&SectionName=History&PlayMedia=Yes
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The path of least resistance and least trouble is a mental rut already made. It requires troublesome work to undertake the alternation of old beliefs.
-John Dewey |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
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Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kosh wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | | SvZurich wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | | American people thusly are the worst terrorists. |
And I think you hit on the inspiration for a Bowie song right here. |
/me hates shitty music. |
Philistine |
No Joke!
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Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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jambrose
billions and billions
Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 578
Local time: 8:25 AM
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | Now the REAL conversation comes with the TERRORISM committed by the Americans.
Just look at the proposed targets.
On May 10–11, 1945 The Target Committee at Los Alamos, led by J. Robert Oppenheimer , recommended Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama, and the arsenal at Kokura as possible targets. The target selection was subject to the following criteria: (1) they are larger than three miles in diameter and are important targets in a large urban area (2) the blast would create effective damage, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by August 1945. "Any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb."
1. Large urban area. AKA lots of innocent civilians.
2. effective damage to INFRASTRUCTURE. Something not very linked to military fight.
3. Something not all that important.
What kind of uproar would we have if we dropped bombs on innocent civilians or in the attempts to destroy civilian infrastructure?
Fuck...
Next
The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released.
1. Psychological factors; aka fear; aka TERROR. The bomb is to spread TERROR.
2. Make the SHOCK AND AWE factor spread even more TERROR.
In this respect Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. Hiroshima has the advantage of being such a size and with possible focussing from nearby mountains that a large fraction of the city may be destroyed. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value."[9]
During World War II, Edwin O. Reischauer was the Japan expert for the US Army Intelligence Service, in which role he is incorrectly said to have prevented the bombing of Kyoto.[10] In his autobiography, Reischauer specifically refuted the validity of this broadly-accepted claim:
"...the only person deserving credit for saving Kyoto from destruction is Henry L. Stimson, the Secretary of War at the time, who had known and admired Kyoto ever since his honeymoon there several decades earlier."[11]
Intelligence also is synonomous with being weak and quick to fear/terror also.
The nuclear bomb was designed and planned with full effect of spreading the most fear and terror amongst the Japanese people.
American people thusly are the worst terrorists. |
mmm nothing like the smell of america-hate in the morning
you miss the point of A FUCKING WAR GOING ON, a war which CANNOT be correlated to modern times with the jihadists
estimations predicted an invasion of japan would cost 1 million US troops
of course theres also from your beloved wikipedia
| Quote: | | At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. |
| Quote: | The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.
In contrast to many modern aspects of Hiroshima, the bulk of the residences were of old-fashioned Japanese construction, consisting of wood or wood-frame buildings, with wood walls (with or without plaster), and tile roofs. Many of the smaller industries and business establishments were also housed in buildings of wood or other materials not designed to withstand explosions. Nagasaki had been permitted to grow for many years without conforming to any definite city zoning plan; residences were erected adjacent to factory buildings and to each other almost as closely as possible throughout the entire industrial valley. |
look they chose these sites due to military importance.. but mainly because it would make the biggest umph, you dont know how many lives the bombing saved if the war had continued. do you think russia would have stopped even with the surrender?
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Kosh
Intergalactic masturbator
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 366
Local time: 10:25 PM
Location: Pohjola
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Must....resist ......the urge......to... ugh.
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"God is an invention of Man. So the nature of God is a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of man." - Nanrei Kobori
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
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Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Go ahead, puke all over... |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 7:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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mmm nothing like the smell of america-hate in the morning |
it was ur choice to read it in the morning.
| Quote: | | you miss the point of A FUCKING WAR GOING ON, a war which CANNOT be correlated to modern times with the jihadists |
who did that? I didnt do that.
I used the definition of what a "terrorist" is and compared the americans to other terrorists.
| Quote: | | estimations predicted an invasion of japan would cost 1 million US troops |
Who says you have to invade? You can continue to carpet bomb and attack anything that comes from the island... etc etc.
Still... dropping nuclear bombs on innocent civilians to scare the rest of the civilians into surrendering isnt really all that ethical.
| Quote: | | look they chose these sites due to military importance.. but mainly because it would make the biggest umph, you dont know how many lives the bombing saved if the war had continued. do you think russia would have stopped even with the surrender? |
oh ya... so POTENTIALLY saving lives allows you to drop nuclear weapons on innocent civilians... to spread terror to other innocent civilians.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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