| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Iliketofrolic666
laissez faire, laissez aller, laissez passer
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 266
Local time: 7:59 AM
Location: Buffalo, NY
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Friend wrote: | | Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | Friend wrote: |
It's kinda like when Christians oafishly dismiss atheism as foolish bigotry simply because they don't like being criticized, being told to note what is clearly a foul matter in the irrationality of a religion they consistently try pedaling off into government. |
You can dismiss a claim without going out of your way to offend people, I can disapprove of a war without calling soldiers baby killers. I can also disapprove of Christianity without calling Christian parents abusive. The example that Richard Dawkins uses is an exception, most Christians aren't that extreme. You can't use an exception to prove a rule, when you do it makes you look dishonest and hateful, which undermines your goal of persuading people that God is imaginary. |
So most Christians don't forcibly indoctrinate their children to believe there is a place where people suffer indefinitely by being charred, and burned, tortured maimed, etc, for not following the word of the myth? |
Well, most Christians I know think you just have to be a good person to not burn in hell (i.e. not a murderer). Is that so horrible?
| Quote: |
Most Christians give children the option to not partake in such conditioning?
|
What most Christians tell their kids, (you have to be a good person) isn't so horrible.
| Quote: |
To me it seems raising children to believe such things is the very idea of dishonest, and clearly it was psychologically abusive to the people Dawkins mentioned.
|
How can it be dishonest if the parent sincerely believes it? My parents indoctrinated me with Catholicism yet I am emotional intact. I have not suffered any sort of damage because of this, irreparable or otherwise. I will agree with you that what occurs in Jesus Camp and similar Christian communities is child abuse, but so would most Christians.
Edit: Fine, I am wrong, I am not above being wrong. Crucifiction's posts are what did it for me.
Last edited by Iliketofrolic666 on Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:43 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
CruciFiction
Forum Plebian
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 166
Local time: 7:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | Friend wrote: |
It's kinda like when Christians oafishly dismiss atheism as foolish bigotry simply because they don't like being criticized, being told to note what is clearly a foul matter in the irrationality of a religion they consistently try pedaling off into government. |
You can dismiss a claim without going out of your way to offend people, I can disapprove of a war without calling soldiers baby killers. I can also disapprove of Christianity without calling Christian parents abusive. The example that Richard Dawkins uses is an exception, most Christians aren't that extreme. You can't use an exception to prove a rule, when you do it makes you look dishonest and hateful, which undermines your goal of persuading people that God is imaginary. |
I don't think there are many people who, when disagreeing with another's idea or claim, intentionally "go out of their way" to offend. But human nature is such that just the simple fact of disagreement, any disagreement, tends to offend. And I think there can be very good reasons in some cases to not be concerned at all with offending when it's deemed to be of the utmost importance to get the point across. However, for some irrational reason we've been conditioned over the decades to think that we must never disagree with someone's delusional religious ideas and claims, and to do so is even "hateful". Poppycock!!! If one is so concerned over offending others in matters of religion, then it's probably best for that person to just shut up -- but then you do so at the risk of subverting your own principles, opinions, and right to free speech, while rewarding and even abetting the spread of religious nonsense through silence.
Then there are those who bend over backwards enough to break their own spines in trying to not offend people while disagreeing with an idea or claim. And they often do so to the tragic extent that the very objections or refutations they try to express are so completely lost in discussion that the other party may even interpret the words in a way which is utterly contrary, unintended, and even reinforcing/encouraging to them. I see this appeasement toward religious nonsense and delusion far too often and am utterly disgusted by its very nature of defeatism and the inner confusion it reflects.
The inculcation and indoctrination of young children into accepting religious lies and fantasy as a reality is indeed a form of abuse. No matter how you choose to spin it, the fact remains the same. Young children look to authority figures for all guidance and truth, and the conditioning which is thrust upon the minds of young children lasts a lifetime -- and the "church" and those who desire to perpetuate their own religion for yet another [crippled] generation have known this fact about young minds for millennia and have systematically used it to their own selfish and warped advantage.
The main problem rests in the fact that the religious indoctrination we're taught as children is usually taught in turn to our own young children without giving it much consideration. It's not even a case of Christian parents being "extreme". Nearly all Christian parents follow through with this socially/religiously accepted form of child abuse automatically. There is seldom the thought that perhaps only when the child is much older should he/she discover and adopt beliefs of their own choice. It is not that most Christian parents are intentionally trying to inflict a child abuse (though the church/institutions intentionally do) onto their own, but they are caught up in such a pack of lies from the time of their own childhood that they cannot and do not realize the mental abuse to which they were exposed is even mental child abuse at all. How could it possibly be seen any other way but abuse in the teaching of a young child for example, that if they're not good and do not do exactly what the parents tell them to do, that the bogeyman will come out from under their bed one night and eat them. The details may be different, but the instilling of horror, fear, and supernatural fantasy on a young impressionable mind is quite the same. And such delusion can equally lead one to dangerous psychoses and neuroses later in life. We see this in tragic news items far too often to be ignored or dismissed out of hand.
I think it's much better to get one's point across in such a way as to communicate a thorough and clear understanding no matter the level of how it may be received, rather than to constantly tip-toe around such a dastardly disease of the mind in discussions as to even cause a hint of mutual acceptance. IMO, this brainwashing of youth is abhorrent and must be clearly and unambiguously conveyed as such -- just as any other crime against a child is forcefully opposed.
_________________
"It worries me about religion in that it teaches people to be satisfied with not understanding." ~ Richard Dawkins |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A_Atheist_named_Christian
Forum Master
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 2950
Local time: 8:59 AM
Location: The Caribbean
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | How can it be dishonest if the parent sincerely believes it? My parents indoctrinated me with Catholicism yet I am emotional intact. I have not suffered any sort of damage because of this, irreparable or otherwise. |
I think you are making the mistake of assuming that everyone is capable of being as emotionally stable as you are.
Using yourself as an example is bad in this regard, because you really are speaking for yourself and only yourself here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CruciFiction
Forum Plebian
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 166
Local time: 7:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
Well, most Christians I know think you just have to be a good person to not burn in hell (i.e. not a murderer). Is that so horrible?
|
Yes it is. It is merely teaching that one must "be a good person", or else (burn in hell)! How is that not horrible? Does it really instill a good sense of morality in a person through the corruption of blackmail? Telling/commanding a person how to be/act coupled with fear of terrible punishment for violation is "religious morality". Explaining to a person in logical and reasonable terms as to why we should be good as taken from lessons of human history and personal experience with respect to mutual cooperation and respect is the morality we should all seek to advance. This is known as "rational morality".
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
What most Christians tell their kids, (you have to be a good person) isn't so horrible.
|
Without rational reasons, but only "telling" kids things which are coupled with fear [of God] and outcomes from other ancient nonsensical fables is indeed horrible.
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
How can it be dishonest if the parent sincerely believes it? My parents indoctrinated me with Catholicism yet I am emotional intact. I have not suffered any sort of damage because of this, irreparable or otherwise. I will agree with you that what occurs in Jesus Camp and similar Christian communities is child abuse, but so would most Christians. |
There may be the obvious abuse of religious indoctrination, and then there is the not so obvious -- the almost subliminal abuse which can also be [unknowingly] damaging, but more importantly, is completely unnecessary in raising children to be good and decent adults.
I see a lot of former Christians who now declare themselves as atheists, but still carry that baggage that's been referred to as "faith in faith". They still harbor that deep, almost subconscious craving for religious faith they once loved so much. But since they realized the lies and the fraud of religion, they claim it's no longer something good enough for them, but yet they emotionally still want to see it in others. And when they see atheists ridicule and attack religion, their loud objections to it is moreso a projection of their own inner hurt in being offended that blurts forth in the dishonest form of defending others of faith.
_________________
"It worries me about religion in that it teaches people to be satisfied with not understanding." ~ Richard Dawkins |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4988
Local time: 6:59 AM
Location: Minnesota
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
How can it be dishonest if the parent sincerely believes it? My parents indoctrinated me with Catholicism yet I am emotional intact. I have not suffered any sort of damage because of this, irreparable or otherwise. I will agree with you that what occurs in Jesus Camp and similar Christian communities is child abuse, but so would most Christians. |
Kudos for your clear thnking and your willingness to not automatically be prejudiced because somebody is a theist.
I am a theist and I was of the attitude that all children should get to choose their own beliefs when they are adult and that is what I did with my children. But most people I know personally are theists who have done a wonderful job with their children as human beings yet chose to present a faith to them early. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Iliketofrolic666
laissez faire, laissez aller, laissez passer
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 266
Local time: 7:59 AM
Location: Buffalo, NY
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ShaSha wrote: | | Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
How can it be dishonest if the parent sincerely believes it? My parents indoctrinated me with Catholicism yet I am emotional intact. I have not suffered any sort of damage because of this, irreparable or otherwise. I will agree with you that what occurs in Jesus Camp and similar Christian communities is child abuse, but so would most Christians. |
Kudos for your clear thnking and your willingness to not automatically be prejudiced because somebody is a theist.
I am a theist and I was of the attitude that all children should get to choose their own beliefs when they are adult and that is what I did with my children. But most people I know personally are theists who have done a wonderful job with their children as human beings yet chose to present a faith to them early. |
LOL, see my edit |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6616
Local time: 6:59 AM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: |
Edit: Fine, I am wrong, I am not above being wrong. Crucifiction's posts are what did it for me. |
Dude! Don't you know you're supposed to quote his entire post in little sound bites and make an even longer post for the purpose of desperately defending your position? What's wrong with you?? LOL. Well done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 4:59 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | You can dismiss a claim without going out of your way to offend people, I can disapprove of a war without calling soldiers baby killers. I can also disapprove of Christianity without calling Christian parents abusive. The example that Richard Dawkins uses is an exception, most Christians aren't that extreme. You can't use an exception to prove a rule, when you do it makes you look dishonest and hateful, which undermines your goal of persuading people that God is imaginary. |
Most christians are indeed not that extreme, but there are a great many of them that are. Enough to make a significant impact in the world at large.
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sultan Borat
Royal Citizen
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 307
Local time: 7:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Paula Zhans guests practically pulled a Bill O'Reily ,in the 2nd part, My trip all the way to Alexandria Virginia and D.C pretty much confirmed to me that all this religious chalk about the states being Jesus land is quite true, The two things most present in the horizon are the cross and Macdonald's. I had never seen so many damn crosses!! Not to say Christianity doesn't exist in Canada but hell church galore down south, Not to mention all those abortion gives you cancer signs.
This Christian nation is a invention of the right wing since George Bush has taken Office, Nobody in the U.S knows their own history nor the fact that many of the founding fathers were hardly Christian. *under god* only came into existence in the 1960's cold war era , The original pledge was *one nation Indivisible*. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 4:59 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sultan Borat wrote: | | Paula Zhans guests practically pulled a Bill O'Reily ,in the 2nd part, My trip all the way to Alexandria Virginia and D.C pretty much confirmed to me that all this religious chalk about the states being Jesus land is quite true, The two things most present in the horizon are the cross and Macdonald's. I had never seen so many damn crosses!! Not to say Christianity doesn't exist in Canada but hell church galore down south, Not to mention all those abortion gives you cancer signs. |
Welcome to the world I lived in before I moved out to southern California. There are still a number of churches out here, but NOTHING like the number of churches you see in the south. They don't call it "The Bible Belt" for nothin! 
| Sultan Borat wrote: | | This Christian nation is a invention of the right wing since George Bush has taken Office, Nobody in the U.S knows their own history nor the fact that many of the founding fathers were hardly Christian. *under god* only came into existence in the 1960's cold war era , The original pledge was *one nation Indivisible*. |
1954, during the McCarthy era, backed by The Knights of Columbus, a catholic organization dedicated to injecting GAWD into EVERYTHING as a means of fighting "those godless commies". 
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6674
Local time: 1:59 PM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CET wrote: | | 1954, during the McCarthy era, backed by The Knights of Columbus, a catholic organization dedicated to injecting GAWD into EVERYTHING as a means of fighting "those godless commies". |
Wanting to have their so-called "I am right" declared in some way no matter what. I'm not sure what would be the most fitting english word for that, but in the Netherlands we call that "drammen".
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 8:59 AM
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
That panel was full of twats.
End.
"We should've never taken prayer out of school."
Hahaha.
"Atheists are not strong."
AHAHAHA. God I wanna roll that fat bitch down a hill and into a wintery lake. Die in a fire, thanks.
It's funny how they say that this nation is a Christian nation and founded by Christians. Take a history class you idiots. The majority of the founding fathers were deists. Then something about atheists and how they shouldn't say anything about Christians values such as "In God we trust,"... wait so, was it wrong for black slaves to complain about their enslavement even though an excuse was that white people were morally superior to them because they weren't Christian? How about the Native Americans who suffered from Manifest Destiny, where Sullivan said that Americans are empowered by God to take over all of North American from sea to sea?
Silly theists.
_________________
"Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Specus_Meretricis
Peddler of Bombast
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 2754
Local time: 8:59 AM
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
It seems they picked that panel out of an elevator in the building. None of them, even the moderate, presented their case very well and lacked the most basic reasoning skills. I'm not just saying that in a "haha! stupids!" way either. It all was very sloppy and just thrown together at the last minute.
I thought that family they talked to were a bit shady. You don't get evicted because you are an atheist. If that had happened, a landlord just showing up out of nowhere to kick you out, every lawyer in your zipcode would start barking and chase after the smell of blood. Those people were late with the rent too much or causing too many complaints. That could have been Bumwaters, AK and the moment you got an eviction notice for your religion, or lack thereof, you can start painting the walls because you are going to own it.
_________________
Fuck you bitch!!! I told you the asparagus is in the freezer! - William Shatner
What do you call someone that doesn't laugh at asparagus jokes? A human being. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ulfgar
Delicious Dish.
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 1734
Local time: 10:59 PM
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It seems they picked that panel out of an elevator in the building. None of them, even the moderate, presented their case very well and lacked the most basic reasoning skills. I'm not just saying that in a "haha! stupids!" way either. It all was very sloppy and just thrown together at the last minute. |
Agreed. A lot of panels today seem to be tossed together messes of pundits who love pretending to be experts.
_________________
Help out IG:
http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopicp-280483-IGs_WishList.html#280483 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4683
Local time: 10:59 PM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jutter wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 1954, during the McCarthy era, backed by The Knights of Columbus, a catholic organization dedicated to injecting GAWD into EVERYTHING as a means of fighting "those godless commies". |
Wanting to have their so-called "I am right" declared in some way no matter what. I'm not sure what would be the most fitting english word for that, but in the Netherlands we call that "drammen". |
I am trying to get 2 new fallacies into common use. This one, forcing your beliefs on others "no matter what" I call "the sledgehammer fallacy." That is, agree with me or I will knock your head off with a sledgehammer.
The Sledghammer fallacy is a specific type of the "Last Man Standing fallacy", which says that if one party dies during a debate the one remaining alive was right.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
