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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 5:42 PM
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 Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | It's not just about having a surplus, it is also about not getting taxed anymore than 10% of your total income, and not having all these bullshit worthless programs that look good on paper, but do nothing in reality. |
If people didn't spend so much of their time trying to avoid paying their fair share of taxes the government wouldn't have been forced to come up with more to make up for the loses in revenue. As for so-called "bullshit worthless programs" the biggest one was for a national defense that costs trillions and didn't actually protect the nation when it was truly needed. The money could have been spent more wisely on programs to improve quality of life for all Americans instead. The USA is the only Western nation not to have UHC and it shows.
| Quote: | | The problem with the American health care system is because of too much government interference. |
Actually, the problem is the opposite. Privately run healthcare is a failure for most people. You get companies that over bill people. One example was an extreme case of $1000 for a toothbrush. Quality is irrelevant if a rapidly growing number of people can't benefit from it. We spend far less on healthcare in Canada and yet we get better service out of it. Our administrative costs are lower as well.
Anyways this is straying off the topic at hand.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 3815
Local time: 7:42 AM
Location: Cin City, OH!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, my vote is for FDR.
Lincoln did some substantial constitutional damage, but it wasn't nearly as far-reaching as FDR's. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 3:42 PM
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Materialist99 wrote: | | They got a lot of people killed, so it seems the media generally depicts them as great successes. Looking at the ranking of presidents at Wikipedia, it seems those presidents that have wars are generally considered great presidents, while presidents where peace reigns are considered failures. |
| sjc wrote: | | I think the difference here is in who had started the wars. Lincoln freed the slaves. |
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! He did no such thing.
| sjc wrote: | | FDR brought America out of the Great Depression. |
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! He did no such thing.
| Materialist99 wrote: | | It is interesting how Liberals and Conservatives rank the presidents. Hardly a difference! It's amazing how most Liberals and Conservatives think there is a big difference, between themselves. |
| sjc wrote: | | Depends on what you mean by greatness. Lincoln did stuff that many modern republicans would look down own. |
Like fighting an unnecessary war and suspending rights secured under the Constitution?
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Last edited by Knight_of_BAAWA on Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 3:42 PM
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | They forgot Lincoln and FDR. |
| Materialist99 wrote: | | They got a lot of people killed, so it seems the media generally depicts them as great successes. Looking at the ranking of presidents at Wikipedia, it seems those presidents that have wars are generally considered great presidents, while presidents where peace reigns are considered failures. |
Peace must mean that you're a pussy. All good presidents must send people to die.
| Materialist99 wrote: | | It is interesting how Liberals and Conservatives rank the presidents. Hardly a difference! It's amazing how most Liberals and Conservatives think there is a big difference, between themselves. |
Two sides of the same coin.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 5:42 PM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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What's that smell? Smells like dead fish.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 3:42 PM
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Can you smell that smell? The smell of death surrounds you.
*is the king of pop-culture references here*
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2538
Local time: 1:42 PM
Location: Northern LA County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: | | Lincoln freed the slaves. |
Learn some of the history of your sothern neighbor, and learn why your country didn't support the USA in that war.
| sjc wrote: | | FDR brought America out of the Great Depression. |
By making it longer than it had to be, starting a war, and then finally dying and enabling business to reumse once he was gone.
| sjc wrote: | | Remember, when Clinton was in charge he created a surplus. |
The national debt went up every year, even under Clinton. The increase slowed, but he it went up. The bottom line shows there was no surplus. If there was a surplus the debt would have gone down, not up.
Back to topic - my votes for worse are Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR in that order.
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Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 5:42 PM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
I see that there is someone I had missed to put on the Ignore list. Thanks for reminding me. 
I guess that fundies can be of some minor use after all. This discussion is over now that it has been infested.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 5034
Local time: 5:42 PM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: |
The national debt went up every year, even under Clinton. The increase slowed, but he it went up. The bottom line shows there was no surplus. If there was a surplus the debt would have gone down, not up.
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This page says otherwise. According to their data, since WWII the debt as a percentage of GDP has only increased during the Reagan and Bush family's administrations.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Moloth
Fateless
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23105
Local time: 4:42 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: | Jason_Harvestdancer
I see that there is someone I had missed to put on the Ignore list. Thanks for reminding me.
I guess that fundies can be of some minor use after all. This discussion is over now that it has been infested. |
thats a safe bet... Ignore everyone who disagrees with you. fantastic way to learn... unless, of course, you already know everything, then there's no reason to be on a forum at all except to impart your knowledge on the unworthy masses.
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 5034
Local time: 5:42 PM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: |
Clinton created a surplus and was starting to pay down the national debt. Dubya squandered it in tax breaks for the rich and the war on Iraq. Canada has had surplus budgets for nearly a decade and yet we still have UHC and other social programs. We also have little to no foreign debt. Everything you seem to rail against also seems to work, for the most part, elsewhere. |
Hmmmmm...this is interesting: Public debt rank order.
#29 Canada 65.40% of GDP
#32 United States 64.70% of GDP
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 3:42 PM
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: |
The national debt went up every year, even under Clinton. The increase slowed, but he it went up. The bottom line shows there was no surplus. If there was a surplus the debt would have gone down, not up.
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | This page says otherwise. According to their data, since WWII the debt as a percentage of GDP has only increased during the Reagan and Bush family's administrations. |
That's as a % of the GDP. The debt itself can go up while the % relative to the GDP goes down.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Ivan_Ivanov
Administrator
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 3983
Local time: 11:42 PM
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: | Jason_Harvestdancer
I see that there is someone I had missed to put on the Ignore list. Thanks for reminding me. |
| sjc1963 wrote: | | TrentonZero wrote: | | You know, eventually, everyone is going to add you [...to the ignore list], and this is going to be a really boring forum for you. |
Hasn't happen yet because, for their faults, they aren't losers or a coward like you. |
source
I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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Iliketofrolic666
laissez faire, laissez aller, laissez passer
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 266
Local time: 4:42 PM
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: | | Iliketofrolic666 wrote: | | It's not just about having a surplus, it is also about not getting taxed anymore than 10% of your total income, and not having all these bullshit worthless programs that look good on paper, but do nothing in reality. |
If people didn't spend so much of their time trying to avoid paying their fair share of taxes the government wouldn't have been forced to come up with more to make up for the loses in revenue. As for so-called "bullshit worthless programs" the biggest one was for a national defense that costs trillions and didn't actually protect the nation when it was truly needed. The money could have been spent more wisely on programs to improve quality of life for all Americans instead. The USA is the only Western nation not to have UHC and it shows.
| Quote: | | The problem with the American health care system is because of too much government interference. |
Actually, the problem is the opposite. Privately run healthcare is a failure for most people. You get companies that over bill people. One example was an extreme case of $1000 for a toothbrush. Quality is irrelevant if a rapidly growing number of people can't benefit from it. We spend far less on healthcare in Canada and yet we get better service out of it. Our administrative costs are lower as well.
Anyways this is straying off the topic at hand. |
OMG wow, I already said that the spending of the Department of Defense was bullshit
T
I am not arguing that Canada's or any other countries' health care should be like America's. I am arguing that America's health care shouldn't be interfered with by government as it currently is. |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2538
Local time: 1:42 PM
Location: Northern LA County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| sjc wrote: | Jason_Harvestdancer
I see that there is someone I had missed to put on the Ignore list. Thanks for reminding me.
I guess that fundies can be of some minor use after all. This discussion is over now that it has been infested. |
On another board, sjc admitted that he has survived off of government handouts, for at least some portion of his life.
That is important to know in what follows, for sjc starts with the premise that he is good. If he is good, then government handouts must be good, for if government handouts were bad, that would make sjc bad.
Libertarians like myself are fully against welfare systems for a variety of practical AND moral reasons. We say "it's wrong and it doesn't work even if it was right" or "it doesn't work and even if it did it's wrong." Basically we are saying to sjc "what you did was bad", which to him translates to "you are bad".
Sjc cannot be bad, therefore the libertarian has to be bad. So what epithet do you apply to someone who doesn't want to have the result of his hard work taken away to support someone else? You could call them greedy, selfish, heartless. Since sjc survived by being supported by the government, he accuses those who oppose welfare systems of wanting those on welfare to starve and die. Since sjc cannot be bad, the libertarian must be bad.
Since the libertarian must be bad, everything about the libertarian must be bad. I am a staunch opponent of the Iraq war, and have been since before the invasion. Sjc is also an opponent of the Iraq war since the president leading the war is of the wrong party. Since I must be all bad, sjc concluded that I must support the war. Nowhere have I ever made any statements that would indicate any form of support for the war of agression against Iraq, but since I must be all bad (because I'm a libertarian) I must be bad on subjects other than welfare.
He has never admitted he was wrong about me and Iraq. That would mean admitting a libertarian was right about something. Libertarians are all bad and sjc is all good, after all. A very manichean view of the world, much like our terrible president has. Bush says you are either for Bush or you are for the terrorists. I say Bush has done more for the terrorists than anything I could ever do, even if I did support them, which I don't.
Since we hold political beliefs that are all bad (by definition), and since sjc is an atheist (and therefore theism is bad and therefore libertarians are theists) we must hold our political beliefs for a religious reason. It cannot be for any other reason. The only reason people do bad things is for religious reasons after all. Since sjc is the standard of good and the scale of good, and atheism is a good, then theism is a bad and all libertarians become, by definition, theists.
It has also been pointed out to sjc that he doesn't know nearly as much about libertarianism as he thinks he does, but if any system is a) theistic by defintiion and b) all bad by definition, learning about it is unnecessary. There are people who agree politically with sjc that know far more about libertarianism than he does, and as a result can make more informed arguments against it than he does, but his own peculiar belief system negates the necessity of learning. For sjc to determine what a libertarian thinks or believes, he finds his own opinion on the subject, inverts it, and that is by default and by definition the libertarian position - a rather delusional form of projection.
It's a very delusional form of the false dichotomy logical fallacy, one that actually will need years of therapy to resolve. But since he is all good, he doesn't need therapy.
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Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
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