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Mr_C
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Great post IMHO, except for this:
| aileron wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: |
And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. |
Meh... I think that study had some questionable scholarship. People who know I'm an atheist don't run to the restroom to wash their hands after shaking my hand. I know people who do exactly that after shaking the hand of a gay man or a black person. I think people who responded to that study chose the least politically incorrect option, and the author seemed to have an agenda.
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Ask everybody in America to rank minority groups from "like" to "dislike", and atheists would come in dead last. That was my point- the sheer numbers of the thing. Not the intensity of the individual's hate. |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | I'm married and have 2 very young kids. If my wife knew that I posted on this forum every day, it is possible that we would separate for a while (I doubt we would ultimately divorce, but she has threatened all too seriously when I told her I was an atheist). She is the most amazing woman I've ever met, but she can't handle the "No God" conclusion. So I keep silent out of respect for her. |
Man, that must be rough. How long do you plan to keep silent? Your situation sounds exactly like my father and mother in-law, who after 30 + years of marriage and four children, are going through a divorce. I suspect that my father in-law is a closet agnostic, which isn't the main reason for the divorce, but I guess after 30 years of his wife suffocating all freethought, he'd finally had enough. Every time I'm over there, my husband and I will have discussions with him about religion, science or evolution, but those conversations are put to a stop whenever his wife walks into the room.
Hopefully your wife will come around.
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | | I'm married and have 2 very young kids. If my wife knew that I posted on this forum every day, it is possible that we would separate for a while (I doubt we would ultimately divorce, but she has threatened all too seriously when I told her I was an atheist). She is the most amazing woman I've ever met, but she can't handle the "No God" conclusion. So I keep silent out of respect for her. |
Man, that must be rough. How long do you plan to keep silent? Your situation sounds exactly like my father and mother in-law, who after 30 + years of marriage and four children, are going through a divorce. I suspect that my father in-law is a closet agnostic, which isn't the main reason for the divorce, but I guess after 30 years of his wife suffocating all freethought, he'd finally had enough. Every time I'm over there, my husband and I will have discussions with him about religion, science or evolution, but those conversations are put to a stop whenever his wife walks into the room.
Hopefully your wife will come around. |
Who knows? It's not as rough as you would think since I have an outlet for free thought. But I do have high hopes for her. I want to get to the point soon where I can get her to read some Robert Price or something like that. It's hard no to come to your own conclusions when faced with the facts that he brings to the table. |
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Jutter
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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A simple consequence of believing X, is that it can and probably will hinder your ability to cope with people who don't share your belief.
That's how "gods" can drive a wedge between people. When you're taught to love God and other people, that can often mean that love for other people ends when it comes to people who don't believe in gods. And it just won't dawn on them how horribly that doesn't mesh with what they likely preceive their god to be.
That kind of love merely boils down to having a common enemy.
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aileron
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | Great post IMHO, except for this:
| aileron wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: |
And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. |
Meh... I think that study had some questionable scholarship. People who know I'm an atheist don't run to the restroom to wash their hands after shaking my hand. I know people who do exactly that after shaking the hand of a gay man or a black person. I think people who responded to that study chose the least politically incorrect option, and the author seemed to have an agenda.
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Ask everybody in America to rank minority groups from "like" to "dislike", and atheists would come in dead last. That was my point- the sheer numbers of the thing. Not the intensity of the individual's hate. |
OK, I think that you're on to something here. In part though, people taking surveys answer as if they are being judged by the person running the survey - even if it is anonymous. Because of decades of activism, it has become unfashionable to discriminate openly against most minority groups unless you're certain that the person you're communicating with shares your dislike of that minority. Atheism has yet to see that level of activism and so if forced to choose, a person may well chose the option that they feel would cause the least judgemental response from the people evaluating the survey. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | Great post IMHO, except for this:
| aileron wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: |
And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. |
Meh... I think that study had some questionable scholarship. People who know I'm an atheist don't run to the restroom to wash their hands after shaking my hand. I know people who do exactly that after shaking the hand of a gay man or a black person. I think people who responded to that study chose the least politically incorrect option, and the author seemed to have an agenda.
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Ask everybody in America to rank minority groups from "like" to "dislike", and atheists would come in dead last. That was my point- the sheer numbers of the thing. Not the intensity of the individual's hate. |
OK, I think that you're on to something here. In part though, people taking surveys answer as if they are being judged by the person running the survey - even if it is anonymous. Because of decades of activism, it has become unfashionable to discriminate openly against most minority groups unless you're certain that the person you're communicating with shares your dislike of that minority. Atheism has yet to see that level of activism and so if forced to choose, a person may well chose the option that they feel would cause the least judgemental response from the people evaluating the survey. |
Very well put. I think much of the bias is from ignorance, frankly. People don't realize that (a)Atheism is a popular world view, and (b)It is an extremely tenable position. If people realized these two facts, I doubt we would be ranked so low in my hypothetical survey. |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno if anyone has mentioned this yet. However CNN is right-wing media. It's just that fox is so much further rightwing people start thinking that CNN is sort of in the middle or something. Which is false.
Notice how atheism didn't even have a voice in that panel and how they basically kept making false claims and got to keep walking on with it.
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | I dunno if anyone has mentioned this yet. However CNN is right-wing media. It's just that fox is so much further rightwing people start thinking that CNN is sort of in the middle or something. Which is false.
Notice how atheism didn't even have a voice in that panel and how they basically kept making false claims and got to keep walking on with it. |
CNN is right-winged? That's news to me  |
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CruciFiction
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Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Many of us who emailed complaints to CNN about this program have today received this totally unassociated reply:
=====================================================================
Dear I-Reporter,
On behalf of CNN, please accept our sincere thanks for your I-Report submission during our memorial coverage of the tragic death of Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin. Thanks to the many submissions from our viewers, our coverage carried the personal touch that came from his vast and personal outreach to his many fans. Our programming effort was a huge success, and you are part of the reason for that.
Again, we sincerely thank you and hope you will continue to send relevant submissions to us at http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/
Best wishes,
CNN Public Information
=====================================================================
Could this be the result of an internal cover-up of thousands of complaints?
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Castaa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | Why such a big criticism of the second part and no praise for the first part? Two different atheist families are given international air time to tell what they have experienced. Theirs is only one side of course.
So the second part is mostly one sided or is it? If you listen to what the three are saying, one is excellent at wanting freedom for all even if it is different than his own beliefs. So you were represented there.
The other two had some points pro atheism if you pay attention to it. When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have. For people living in smaller towns it is easy to believe that it is a Christian country. Only in the larger cities do we see the diversity that is the melting pot of our country. |
I agree with you in part. It should be noted that the first segment was fairly positive towards the family. Anyone sending a complaint should note this in their reply, IMO.
However, atheists were not at all represented well in the commentary segment. Gross fallacies that were central to the issue were repeatedly put forth and then went totally unchallenged. 
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: |
My wife and I do not live in fear of expressing our atheism; we just don't do it unless the topic surfaces. We have come to expect that the person either will not care or will be someone we really do not need in our lives anyway.
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That is great and is the kind of atheist that I know mostly lives in this country. But since some are prejudiced against then there was a story that needed to be told. That and no more than that is the reason for the CNN story. Another time, another place maybe there will be a feature on the happy atheist. I would love to see that.
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I live harmoniously with Christians; could care less about ceremonial Deism in our culture and government; and need no moral support from other atheists. I came here attempting to learn the latest deceits used by religions to scare children into belief. In other words, I came here to protect my children from those people who choose not to live harmoniously with us.
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Cool. That's actually the problem that the first atheist had with their school.
| Quote: | | And they don't need to be on CNN for the same reason. |
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Why, because showing the disposition of the preponderance of our ranks is unimportant? If they chose to represent the position of Roman Catholics, should they go to members of Opus Dei?
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As I said above, maybe a story can be done on you and people such as my son but that story wasn't about you. Get over it or write to them and request one.
| Quote: | | Your example isn't a good one. I am not an atheist but could easily represent your views when it comes to no god |
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I think your posts here have amply demonstrated that you would be a less than ideal representative. |
I think you have very narrow criteria for your choices. I have an extremely broad view of atheism starting with Madlyn Murray O'Hair whom I actually admire and am greatful to though I certainly don't like. It is based on real life experiences with atheists as well as theists albeit not as many atheists. 3+ years on atheist forums has filled in any missing gaps.
I'm equally good at being devil's advocate for various theists. Since there are 99% atheists on an atheist forum most of the time, I get out there and act the role of theist when necessary. That is what you see in this forum is me promoting religious freedom and tolerance. It is what I am about.
| Quote: | | and that is what the black guy did. |
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No - all he did was say that we have a right not to be expected to shut up. You're not making any sense... How is this representing the prevailing positions of atheism? |
Go back and listen to him again. He constantly spoke up for your freedom multiple times. If you can't find more facts in his words than that, you would be a poor defender of atheism because you don't know when you are being praised or insulted? He was absolutely for your civil rights which is the only thing that needs defending if that is what is being harmed.
| aileron wrote: |
Then what points did those ladies make that were pro atheism as you claimed they did? |
Go back and listen to it again yourself. Read the transcript also and just see where they are trying to tie different views in but also are a bit on the defensive for their own personal views. And that is fine. I don't see where CNN was saying now let's only have atheists here to agree with the atheists in the first part. In other words, two very strong atheist views were given in the first part so they decided to have other views in the second part possibly. The panel was there for other critiques that same hour and gave their views on that too which I just now realize from the transcript. So they had what, two christians and one Jew, all educated, on their panel.
One devout Christian is terrific in every way defending the atheists' rights but didn't agree with the atheist view. Go listen again. One Christian starts out pouty but actually manages to get more balanced and had a very good point about the atheism needs better promotional methods. She is the one who states that the atheist doesn't believe in any god. Where does she go wrong in stating that? After that it is a human rights issue not an atheist issue because that is the only thing an atheist is: no belief in god. So why would you be any better than the next person in defending atheism? When I said I could do it as well, I can because it isn't about atheism. It is about freedom to believe or not believe in a deity. Freedom to have all of the freedoms others in this country have.
I'm not going to point out all of the areas you asked because it is all there for you to answer your own questions if you just go listen or read with those questions in mind.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/31/pzn.01.html |
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CruciFiction
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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AAARRGGHHH!! Like fingernails on a chalkboard!!!
Just cannot take anymore of the inane fluffy bullshit and lame apologetics.
ByeBye, ShaSHa. 
Welcome to "ignore".
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | ShaSha:
"In God We Trust" promotes monotheistic beliefs. Hindus, pagans, non-believers, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc would never agree to a statement like that. This is approximately 10%-20% of the current US population.
This is why the phrase should not be printed on every unit of the government's money. A government that tries to stay neutral on the subject of religion. Making monotheistic claims is not neutral.
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Go look up in Google Hiindu prayers in English and you will see the word God translated from the Vedas it appears. Also some Buddhists pray to their version of God. Here is a prayer from a Scientologist, http://www.freetobelieve.org/pg014.html Same is true of Pagan. The only one you have for certain that would never use the term god and trust at the same time is the atheist. And more than likely many atheists don't give a hoot (Dawkins doesn't) although those of you who do, you have the right. That you get hooted back at, don't be surprised.
I don't care if you have Spaghetti monster on the money. Just as long as it spends when I want to, that is all I care about. It is totally non invasive whereas school prayer is invasive unless they allow all believers to present their particular prayer of the day and an atheist to present his/her equivalent. The pledge I am against because I don't like rote anything and I don't like having to pledge when the individual has no idea what they are even saying, such as small children. But the god part can be easily taught to be left out by the non believer or they can also choose opt out in most schools.
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Anyone can pray in US schools. What was limited by the Supreme Court was government employees leading prayer during school hours or events when all children are forced or encouraged to be in attendance. Aside from that, students and teachers can pray in school all they want. |
You are preaching to the choir here. But there are some who want outloud prayer back in school and that is their right to want it even if they aren't going to get it. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: |
Discrimation is discrimination, ShaSha. Disagree with my conclusion about gods or any other intellectual stance I have and I won't be offended. But this was saying that PEOPLE should "Shut Up" because they are different and that's discrimation.
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It wasn't meant in all ways. Another said louder, they don't have to shut up. Why be hurt because somebody used a less than tactful term to state that some of the causes that atheists espouse are whiny? By no means should you have to shut up but it is a freedom of speech to tell you to shut up and is not discriminating against a minority. It is just a lack of manners. That same individual became more moderate in how she did express herself shortly thereafter.
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You're right, it is bigotry. I said I felt like a minority. Know what I mean? Which, in this case, I am. It is a form of discrimination against a minority, and it is inexcusable in today's society. I know you said you would go back and watch it, so please, when you do, put yourself in my shoes. I'm a guy who until very recently prayed every day. I still read the Bible almost every day. I believed in the same God as they do, but I changed my mind. It just didn't make sense to me anymore so I stopped believing it. Now my identity has changed. I am in the group of Atheists that they are referring to. I didn't have anything to do with the court case regarding the pledge. I haven't spoken publically or openly about atheism at all with the exception of this forum, and here I'm just "Mr_C". My name doesn't even start with a "C"! I'm just a puppet wearing a mask in society and this is my only outlet for my unpopular belief system. Are you in my shoes yet? How about this: I'm married and have 2 very young kids. If my wife knew that I posted on this forum every day, it is possible that we would separate for a while (I doubt we would ultimately divorce, but she has threatened all too seriously when I told her I was an atheist). She is the most amazing woman I've ever met, but she can't handle the "No God" conclusion. So I keep silent out of respect for her. Do you know what it's like to hang a marriage on the string of your theology? Welcome to my world. I pretend to have a sort of Deistic/Liberal Christian view of God to avoid hurting my wife. Do you have any idea what that's like? Indeed, being an atheist is more cruel than being black or gay in today's society. Now I've got people on CNN telling me that I need to "Shut Up". Guess what? I already have. But there are a lot more people just like me that are in a position to where they don't have to take this lying down. And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. What the majority doesn't realize is that for the most part, we don't give a damn about the Pledge saying "Under God" or not. As far as I'm concerned, we should leave it there as a reminder of who we used to be. But this debate over prayer in school should be as outdated as the debate on whether or not we should boil a baby goat in its mother's milk, and its implications on our eternity. I'm sorry, but NO bigotry should be tolerated, especially if it is targeted towards an ideology, philosophy, or personal opinion. We've just gotten past (sort of) not discriminating because of something as arbitrary as skin color. Now we get to see what really divides us. |
Rant accepted but not believed it is because of a CNN program. Rather I believe it is because of your personal fears and they are raw at this time. I don't hold it against you. Been there done that in many similar ways and have the t-shirt. If you read the transcript, you will see that you aren't intended to shut up completely. It was just on the minor things which you've already mostly agreed with and if you read my last post above, you'll see I also agree with it.
Until you are black or gay, don't say it is even worse. That's not been proved and isn't a necessary biological function. I remember the days when guys married because they couldn't come out of the closet at all. Imagine if you would making love to a man when you really want a woman. Now do you really think it is so horrible to hold an intellectual view of god to pacify your wife? Nobody is forcing your mind to focus on god, you are always in control of that. But forcing you and your dick to enjoy another guy with your dick, get the picture yet?
Today the gay can live comfortably most places and I am glad for that. The atheist can live comfortably without anybody blinking an eyeball. It has been proved by members on the IG list and one of my sons. My son has had no problems that I am aware of with his view. Since he was allowed to choose it with encouragement from myself, and lives in areas where religion just isn't discussed, it is a non issue. He has been offended sometimes intellectually that I can even have a few of the views I do but on the other hand he sees mine as very broad. I have chastised him lightly when he has made too much fun of a devout person because an atheist from birth has absolutely no idea what it can be like to be "brainwashed" in religion and should consider him/her self lucky that he doesn't ever have to go through possibly mental anguish as a result of it.
Hmmm, blacks? I am not one. And I don't feel that blacks of today have too much to worry about except for an individual here or there. Much like atheists really. But biologically not too many years ago, they couldn't do a thing to hide their color. So no, I don't give you the same degree of comparison that I would give the black of yesteryear. Imagine even the smallest of bigoted acts, separate drinking fountains. Imagine, imagine, imagine. Not something that can be hidden because biologically you simply can't hide most black. But imagine being treated as less than because of the color of your skin, something you have no control over. Yet bigotry is deeper than that because in each group there is bigotry. Blacks against blacks, gays against gays, women against women and so on. It is a condition that goes deeper than religion, color, sex, status and so on.
Personally I could give you many stories of experiences where I have had bigotry aimed towards me but that of many years ago has long been healed and helped give me the positive attitude that I have today. It all hurts but don't imagine it to be coming from where it isn't. It's very easy to worry but in reality there are more people for your rights than against them. And those who are against them generally aren't worth worrying about let alone arguing with.
As to not being able to discuss freely with your wife, there are many couples where there are just some sensitive issues with couples that don't have to do with religion and it becomes an area of "non discussion". So for now you have to "shut up" around your wife and maybe friends but I expect that as you progress in the comfort of your atheism, you will also progress in how you are able to express that area with your wife and others. If it becomes that important that you have to talk about it. My hubby and I started out in the same religion and wound up oceans apart but it was never an area that we fought over very often. We fought over other issues. Whatever the issue, it is painful if it looks like it is the end of your relationship. It's up to the two of you to get through or not. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | I dunno if anyone has mentioned this yet. However CNN is right-wing media. It's just that fox is so much further rightwing people start thinking that CNN is sort of in the middle or something. Which is false.
Notice how atheism didn't even have a voice in that panel and how they basically kept making false claims and got to keep walking on with it. |
Notice how two atheist families were given 4 minutes to discuss only atheism? Notice how three panelists who were there simply as panelists for the whole hour and other topics were only given five minutes? Average it out and your atheist view was given more time.
Show me how Zahn is right wing? Who else on CNN is right wing? I don't watch a lot of CNN but have seen quite a bit of Larry King and Anderson 360. Larry couldn't be as popular as he has been if he wasn't broadminded. He has liberals on there many times and laughs heartily with them over their cracks about others less liberal. He also has conservative on. His show is supposed to stay neutral as is Zahn's. If there is a right wing person, possibly that is to have a balanced network, I'm not sure.
What were the false claims made about atheists? I saw none. What I did see though is the black man who defended atheism as vigorously as if he was defending his own faith. |
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