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ShaSha
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Why such a big criticism of the second part and no praise for the first part? Two different atheist families are given international air time to tell what they have experienced. Theirs is only one side of course.
So the second part is mostly one sided or is it? If you listen to what the three are saying, one is excellent at wanting freedom for all even if it is different than his own beliefs. So you were represented there.
The other two had some points pro atheism if you pay attention to it. When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have. For people living in smaller towns it is easy to believe that it is a Christian country. Only in the larger cities do we see the diversity that is the melting pot of our country. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | Why such a big criticism of the second part and no praise for the first part? Two different atheist families are given international air time to tell what they have experienced. Theirs is only one side of course.
So the second part is mostly one sided or is it? If you listen to what the three are saying, one is excellent at wanting freedom for all even if it is different than his own beliefs. So you were represented there.
The other two had some points pro atheism if you pay attention to it. When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have. For people living in smaller towns it is easy to believe that it is a Christian country. Only in the larger cities do we see the diversity that is the melting pot of our country. |
ShaSha,
What you said above is probably true, but with the exception of the ESPN analyst, the tone of disgust and contempt for atheists was overwhelming. When I saw the second part, I felt like a minority for the first time in my life. And whether or not this is a Christian nation is not the point. Anyone who shares the sentiment expressed in that video should be ashamed of themselves. |
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aileron
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Why such a big criticism of the second part and no praise for the first part? Two different atheist families are given international air time to tell what they have experienced. Theirs is only one side of course. |
Yes, they chose two atheist families who neatly fit into the worst stereotypes of atheism. Why didn't they select one of the hundreds of thousands who go about their business and their neighbors never even suspect they are atheistic?
| Quote: | | So the second part is mostly one sided or is it? If you listen to what the three are saying, one is excellent at wanting freedom for all even if it is different than his own beliefs. So you were represented there. |
The guy in the center was pretty fair minded, but your claim that atheists were represented in that discussion is irrational. Would you think that the Roman Catholic position is being represented in a discussion among two Protestants and a Jew, two of whom are saying that Roman Catholics should shut up and one who's saying that while he finds Roman Catholic beliefs repugnant, they should not be required to shut up?
| Quote: | | The other two had some points pro atheism if you pay attention to it. When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have. |
How, pray tell, is that a pro atheism point? |
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rock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have.
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You have to take note of why she said it's a Christian nation though. Regardless of whether or not it's because of the founding fathers she said it's a Christian nation to deffend the use of "in God we trust" and "under God" both of which are quite clearly Christian.
She's trying to use the idea of America being a traditional Christian nation for the promotion of Christian ideas/culture via the government. She is basically saying it's ok for the government to lean more Christian because it's a "Christian nation".
Like I said before though, the sports guy wasn't bad, he stood up for freedom and I can't ask for more. But you can't have a (serious) discussion about a people without at least one person who is of those people (or at the least understands them) to represent them.
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: |
ShaSha,
What you said above is probably true, but with the exception of the ESPN analyst, the tone of disgust and contempt for atheists was overwhelming. When I saw the second part, I felt like a minority for the first time in my life. And whether or not this is a Christian nation is not the point. Anyone who shares the sentiment expressed in that video should be ashamed of themselves. |
I will have to watch it again to listen for the intonation being consistently against. I don't think it was. So I'll come back later today and discuss this more. I don't think anybody has to be ashamed of themselves for agreeing or disagreeing with anybody. Everybody in this thread has disagreed with somebody else in this thread. Those people have the right to express their honest opinion.
If this is the first time that you have ever felt oppressed, then count yourself blessed. I don't think it has to do with minorities though and is simple bigotry which of course is simply a form of arrogance. And that attitude I think most humans have taken at least a few times and some use it a lot. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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[quote="aileron"] | ShaSha wrote: |
Yes, they chose two atheist families who neatly fit into the worst stereotypes of atheism. Why didn't they select one of the hundreds of thousands who go about their business and their neighbors never even suspect they are atheistic? |
Isn't that the whole point of the story? How many atheists live in fear of expressing themselves because it will possibly affect their lives or their childrens? From what I have seen in the IG forum it is the most frequent complaint.
On the other hand I believe those who have no complaint and do live harmoniously aren't on the forums because they don't need moral support. And they don't need to be on CNN for the same reason.
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The guy in the center was pretty fair minded, but your claim that atheists were represented in that discussion is irrational. Would you think that the Roman Catholic position is being represented in a discussion among two Protestants and a Jew, two of whom are saying that Roman Catholics should shut up and one who's saying that while he finds Roman Catholic beliefs repugnant, they should not be required to shut up?
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Your example isn't a good one. I am not an atheist but could easily represent your views when it comes to no god and that is what the black guy did. Naturally I can't represent any particular individual since no two atheists are alike.
| Quote: | | The other two had some points pro atheism if you pay attention to it. When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have. |
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How, pray tell, is that a pro atheism point? |
It wasn't. It was a statement questioning the person who was making a big issue about the founding fathers. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| rock wrote: | | Quote: |
When one said this is a Christian country she didn't say because of the founding fathers. She might have meant it, might not have.
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You have to take note of why she said it's a Christian nation though. Regardless of whether or not it's because of the founding fathers she said it's a Christian nation to deffend the use of "in God we trust" and "under God" both of which are quite clearly Christian.
She's trying to use the idea of America being a traditional Christian nation for the promotion of Christian ideas/culture via the government. She is basically saying it's ok for the government to lean more Christian because it's a "Christian nation".
Like I said before though, the sports guy wasn't bad, he stood up for freedom and I can't ask for more. But you can't have a (serious) discussion about a people without at least one person who is of those people (or at the least understands them) to represent them. |
It has and never will be quite clear to me that the word God is Christian. So for many of us, God represents the supreme being that all theists espouse exists. It is an English word that covers many religions if not all.
I don't see her saying that the government should promote Christianity. Wanting prayer back in schools isn't wanting the government to promote Christianity. It is wanting prayer back in schools. I am against prayer in school not because it would be government endorsing it but because of the one or two individuals that might not be that religion is being forced to be in an uncomfortable position.
The serious discussion was taken care of very well in the first half. The lack of a serious discussion wasn't necessarily the people on the panel but the two or three minutes allowed for the followup? |
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aileron
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Isn't that the whole point of the story? How many atheists live in fear of expressing themselves because it will possibly affect their lives or their childrens? From what I have seen in the IG forum it is the most frequent complaint. |
My wife and I do not live in fear of expressing our atheism; we just don't do it unless the topic surfaces. We have come to expect that the person either will not care or will be someone we really do not need in our lives anyway.
| Quote: | | On the other hand I believe those who have no complaint and do live harmoniously aren't on the forums because they don't need moral support. |
I live harmoniously with Christians; could care less about ceremonial Deism in our culture and government; and need no moral support from other atheists. I came here attempting to learn the latest deceits used by religions to scare children into belief. In other words, I came here to protect my children from those people who choose not to live harmoniously with us.
| Quote: | | And they don't need to be on CNN for the same reason. |
Why, because showing the disposition of the preponderance of our ranks is unimportant? If they chose to represent the position of Roman Catholics, should they go to members of Opus Dei?
| Quote: | | Your example isn't a good one. I am not an atheist but could easily represent your views when it comes to no god |
I think your posts here have amply demonstrated that you would be a less than ideal representative.
| Quote: | | and that is what the black guy did. |
No - all he did was say that we have a right not to be expected to shut up. You're not making any sense... How is this representing the prevailing positions of atheism?
| aileron wrote: |
How, pray tell, is that a pro atheism point? | Quote: |
It wasn't. It was a statement questioning the person who was making a big issue about the founding fathers. |
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Then what points did those ladies make that were pro atheism as you claimed they did? |
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Castaa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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ShaSha:
"In God We Trust" promotes monotheistic beliefs. Hindus, pagans, non-believers, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc would never agree to a statement like that. This is approximately 10%-20% of the current US population.
This is why the phrase should not be printed on every unit of the government's money. A government that tries to stay neutral on the subject of religion. Making monotheistic claims is not neutral.
Anyone can pray in US schools. What was limited by the Supreme Court was government employees leading prayer during school hours or events when all children are forced or encouraged to be in attendance. Aside from that, students and teachers can pray in school all they want.
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: |
ShaSha,
What you said above is probably true, but with the exception of the ESPN analyst, the tone of disgust and contempt for atheists was overwhelming. When I saw the second part, I felt like a minority for the first time in my life. And whether or not this is a Christian nation is not the point. Anyone who shares the sentiment expressed in that video should be ashamed of themselves. |
I will have to watch it again to listen for the intonation being consistently against. I don't think it was. So I'll come back later today and discuss this more. I don't think anybody has to be ashamed of themselves for agreeing or disagreeing with anybody. Everybody in this thread has disagreed with somebody else in this thread. Those people have the right to express their honest opinion. |
Discrimation is discrimination, ShaSha. Disagree with my conclusion about gods or any other intellectual stance I have and I won't be offended. But this was saying that PEOPLE should "Shut Up" because they are different and that's discrimation.
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If this is the first time that you have ever felt oppressed, then count yourself blessed. |
Yeah, I realize this. I'm a generic white business guy. 
| Quote: |
I don't think it has to do with minorities though and is simple bigotry which of course is simply a form of arrogance. And that attitude I think most humans have taken at least a few times and some use it a lot. |
Warning: Rant follows. Read at your own risk.
You're right, it is bigotry. I said I felt like a minority. Know what I mean? Which, in this case, I am. It is a form of discrimination against a minority, and it is inexcusable in today's society. I know you said you would go back and watch it, so please, when you do, put yourself in my shoes. I'm a guy who until very recently prayed every day. I still read the Bible almost every day. I believed in the same God as they do, but I changed my mind. It just didn't make sense to me anymore so I stopped believing it. Now my identity has changed. I am in the group of Atheists that they are referring to. I didn't have anything to do with the court case regarding the pledge. I haven't spoken publically or openly about atheism at all with the exception of this forum, and here I'm just "Mr_C". My name doesn't even start with a "C"! I'm just a puppet wearing a mask in society and this is my only outlet for my unpopular belief system. Are you in my shoes yet? How about this: I'm married and have 2 very young kids. If my wife knew that I posted on this forum every day, it is possible that we would separate for a while (I doubt we would ultimately divorce, but she has threatened all too seriously when I told her I was an atheist). She is the most amazing woman I've ever met, but she can't handle the "No God" conclusion. So I keep silent out of respect for her. Do you know what it's like to hang a marriage on the string of your theology? Welcome to my world. I pretend to have a sort of Deistic/Liberal Christian view of God to avoid hurting my wife. Do you have any idea what that's like? Indeed, being an atheist is more cruel than being black or gay in today's society. Now I've got people on CNN telling me that I need to "Shut Up". Guess what? I already have. But there are a lot more people just like me that are in a position to where they don't have to take this lying down. And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. What the majority doesn't realize is that for the most part, we don't give a damn about the Pledge saying "Under God" or not. As far as I'm concerned, we should leave it there as a reminder of who we used to be. But this debate over prayer in school should be as outdated as the debate on whether or not we should boil a baby goat in its mother's milk, and its implications on our eternity. I'm sorry, but NO bigotry should be tolerated, especially if it is targeted towards an ideology, philosophy, or personal opinion. We've just gotten past (sort of) not discriminating because of something as arbitrary as skin color. Now we get to see what really divides us. |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | For people living in smaller towns it is easy to believe that it is a Christian country. Only in the larger cities do we see the diversity that is the melting pot of our country. |
This is true in the Islamic world as well. It's true of Cairo and it's true (or WAS true) of Bagdad. I live in Richmond, a not-huge city of about a million people, a reasonably diverse rather typical Amrican town. But if you go 100 miles in the right direction from where I'm sitting right now, you will find yourself in snake-handler country.
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Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
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You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
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A_Atheist_named_Christian
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I find it intensely ironic that a BLACK woman is telling another minority that "they need to shut up."
How would she like it if people told her particular minority to shut up?
The Pulitzer Prize really is worthless if people like this receive it.
In this instance ONLY I would go so far to say that FOX News was more fair to atheists, because even they include atheists in a panel every now and then. |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | We've just gotten past (sort of) not discriminating because of something as arbitrary as skin color. Now we get to see what really divides us. |
As we atheists dare to go public, we will see a lot more of what I call the sledgehammer fallacy, which can be stated simply as: agree with me or I will kill you.
It doesn't always appear in this rarified form, though. The most common versions revolve around appeals to the existence of hell. "I'm a nice guy, but somebody who isn't me will torture you for a long time if you maintain that opinion."
The "shut up" thing from CNN was another, even less overt, example.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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BarkAtTheMoon
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Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: |
Warning: Rant follows. Read at your own risk.
You're right, it is bigotry. I said I felt like a minority. Know what I mean? Which, in this case, I am. It is a form of discrimination against a minority, and it is inexcusable in today's society. I know you said you would go back and watch it, so please, when you do, put yourself in my shoes. I'm a guy who until very recently prayed every day. I still read the Bible almost every day. I believed in the same God as they do, but I changed my mind. It just didn't make sense to me anymore so I stopped believing it. Now my identity has changed. I am in the group of Atheists that they are referring to. I didn't have anything to do with the court case regarding the pledge.
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Speaking of seeing things in other people's shoes, out of curiosity since you're such a recent convert, can you picture in your mind what your reaction to watching this video would have been, say, a year ago in comparison to your current reaction? This leads to an interesting point about the issues with moderates in regards to fundamentalists vs. atheist/secularists that while they might disagree with the attacks on free speech and are maybe against blatant discrimination, they probably wouldn't be overly horrified by the anti-atheist speech by people like this.
Nice rant, BTW.
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aileron
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | How about this: I'm married and have 2 very young kids. If my wife knew that I posted on this forum every day, it is possible that we would separate for a while (I doubt we would ultimately divorce, but she has threatened all too seriously when I told her I was an atheist). |
You have my sympathy here.
| Quote: | | She is the most amazing woman I've ever met, but she can't handle the "No God" conclusion. So I keep silent out of respect for her. Do you know what it's like to hang a marriage on the string of your theology? Welcome to my world. I pretend to have a sort of Deistic/Liberal Christian view of God to avoid hurting my wife. Do you have any idea what that's like? |
I do not know your world, but many men do. Statistically in historically Christian cultures, women generally have higher levels of religosity than men. I know two men in my extended family whom I suspect are doing what you describe.
| Quote: | | Indeed, being an atheist is more cruel than being black or gay in today's society. Now I've got people on CNN telling me that I need to "Shut Up". Guess what? I already have. |
Yes, imagine a public news program with commentators claiming that some other small minority group should "shut up." There would be a public outcry. Where was the public outcry?
| Quote: | | But there are a lot more people just like me that are in a position to where they don't have to take this lying down. |
When a person claims that using peaceful, legal means to redress grievances is being obnoxious, they should wear their label of bigot proudly around their neck -- but we should expect that this will be the reaction of many people.
| Quote: | | And they are starting to get up and organize because we are easily the most hated minority group in the United States. |
Meh... I think that study had some questionable scholarship. People who know I'm an atheist don't run to the restroom to wash their hands after shaking my hand. I know people who do exactly that after shaking the hand of a gay man or a black person. I think people who responded to that study chose the least politically incorrect option, and the author seemed to have an agenda.
| Quote: | | What the majority doesn't realize is that for the most part, we don't give a damn about the Pledge saying "Under God" or not. |
Yes, but as long as the likes of CNN projects this image, and as long as self-important people think it's perfectly acceptable to project that bigoted stereotype, we've got more than a mountain to climb. |
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