Utopia or Utter Hopelessness

TroutXIII · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: Utopia or Utter Hopelessness

One of the High Priests of the "New Atheism", Sam Harris wrote the following in the LA Times:

Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music.

An interesting statement to say the least. I assume he didn't mean it as inflammatory, but rather a chunk of his honest opinion. It seems to be the clarion call of many well meaning atheists to somehow rid the world of the "virus" of theism so that we - humanity - might be able to live more honestly in the face of an uncertain future. I admire their candor and fortitude in maintaining such lofty goals. I do question however exactly what kind of a world that might be.

When I see working models of godless thought enfleshed however, I shudder at their viciousness. The caloused way in which they can carry out executions of countless innocents simply because they were born in a certain geographic locale, or slaughter someone simply because he wore reading glasses, or had a college education. I find such acts utterly evil and morally bankrupt.

The reason I'm able to understand various moral actions is very simple: morality is understood through personhood.

I can't begin to comprehend morality in abstraction, I must always equate it to the intrinsic moral value of someone. Evolutionary ethics is trying to tell me that it can explain the intrinsic morality written into my being, without a personal lawgiver. I find that concept completely untenable. Naturalism demands that we are the products of matter and time, springing forth from a totally physical, blind, amoral framework. As another Priest of atheism has put it:

DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is, and we. dance to its music.

Apparently Pol Pot danced to its music, as did Stalin, Mao and others. The real rub comes when the naturalist wants to say that what those monsters did was "wrong". Their actions can't be deemed immoral or wrong, their actions - from an atheistic perspective - must simply be seen as amoral happenings. Evil itself must be denied in order to adhere to the New Atheism. Claiming that there is a moral law apart from a moral lawgiver is ridiculous, even according to a naturalistic worldview becasue morality must be quantified in personhood.

Claiming that a moral law exists apart from a personal lawgiver would be like raising the question of morality without a questioner. A moral law makes no sense apart from personhood. This must mean that an intrinsically worthy person must exist, and that person can only be God.

What the new priesthood of atheism wants to tell me is that I'm infected with a virus, a virus that doesn't allow me to be able to think critically, and since the priesthood of atheism is free from this virus they are the only ones capable of inputing moral data into their Utopia. What they arrogantly don't realize is their morality is nothing more than a systemic contradiction, affirming the very God they try to deny.
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chookrooter · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject:

Ah right, let's see then------

Amoral,hedonistic---------Slythering!

WashMDJD · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Utopia or Utter Hopelessness

Ah yes... The oft-repeated parade of horribles that atheism supposedly leads to (Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot...), and coupled with the bizarre argument that morality is only morality if it has somebody to command it, too...

It's hard to beat the classics, isn't it?

It's got to be fun to be on the side that can always just pretend like these arguments haven't been destroyed a million times (every time they are presented). You just get to wipe the slate clean after each time and start over with the same argument again.

What's next? Pascal's wager thrown in for good measure?

Sheesh.
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baddogma · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject:

I liked it better when he was gone.
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Moloth · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject:

wow... that was awful, Trout. is that really the best you've got?

"He's GOT to be real! He;s just GOT to be!!"

Rolling Eyes

gosh, how can we deny such clear logic?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

Mr_C · Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject:

Class, turn your books to chapter 12 - "Presuppositional apologetics: an overview"

jaycorath · Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:58 am Post subject:

Without god there'd be no basis for morality...

Therefore, ipso facto, god exists. QED.

Right?

(Or was it, god *must* exist?)

I love it when a plan comes together.
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