Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Karma?
let me save you time with the Wiki meaning;
Karma
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Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म kárma (help·info), kárman- "act, action, performance"[1]; Pali: kamma) is the concept of "action" or "deed" in Indian religions understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Buddhist philosophies.
The philosophical explanation of karma can differ slightly between traditions, but the general concept is basically the same. Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.
I have seen many times in AF, Atheist referring to Karma, and in some levels validating its existence or at least giving it a small percentage of posible existance.
This has been in my mind for a few days, and have been reading a little on the subject to better understand it. it puzzles me and would like to know your opinion on it wether positive or negative.
I have seen many times in AF, Atheist referring to Karma, and in some levels validating its existence or at least giving it a small percentage of posible existance.
Many atheists can use it in a metaphorical sense, but the atheists from whom you've heard it should speak for themselves on that matter.
Quote:
This has been in my mind for a few days, and have been reading a little on the subject to better understand it. it puzzles me and would like to know your opinion on it wether positive or negative.
I'm much more familiar with Buddhist interpretations than the interpretations of other Dharmic religions. But I'll give you a very quick Spark Notes version of karma in Buddhism.
In Buddhism, Karma is taken to be "action". That's kinda it's literal meaning. It fits into one of the fundamental tenants of Buddhism sometimes translated as "interdependent arising". What this term means is that no thing or process occurs in and of itself, but only in the context of all other things.
So, things occur, or are, in a sense, through karma. X arises, and through karma, affects Y. This is especially relevant to the volitional actions of sentient beings in Buddhism, but I really don't wanna write a novel on it right now.
As far as my opinion on karma in Buddhism... it isn't all that controversial, IMO, unless you want to bring it into the realm of rebirth as interpreted throughout most of Buddhism (except for maybe Zen/Ch'an).
I have seen many times in AF, Atheist referring to Karma, and in some levels validating its existence or at least giving it a small percentage of posible existance.
Many atheists can use it in a metaphorical sense, but the atheists from whom you've heard it should speak for themselves on that matter.
Quote:
This has been in my mind for a few days, and have been reading a little on the subject to better understand it. it puzzles me and would like to know your opinion on it wether positive or negative.
I'm much more familiar with Buddhist interpretations than the interpretations of other Dharmic religions. But I'll give you a very quick Spark Notes version of karma in Buddhism.
In Buddhism, Karma is taken to be "action". That's kinda it's literal meaning. It fits into one of the fundamental tenants of Buddhism sometimes translated as "interdependent arising". What this term means is that no thing or process occurs in and of itself, but only in the context of all other things.
So, things occur, or are, in a sense, through karma. X arises, and through karma, affects Y. This is especially relevant to the volitional actions of sentient beings in Buddhism, but I really don't wanna write a novel on it right now.
As far as my opinion on karma in Buddhism... it isn't all that controversial, IMO, unless you want to bring it into the realm of rebirth as interpreted throughout most of Buddhism (except for maybe Zen/Ch'an).
it has stuck on me everytime I see on here, since some as to not say all Atheist see the world very mechanical, karma seems very far from mechanical, so I was very interested on how they can marry the two. _________________ "Love Life"
Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 1638 Local time: 4:14 AM
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject:
Well I think part of what you're hearing is just an attempt at dark (or light) humor, a sort of "I hope they get something to balance this out." On the other hand it's not too difficult to believe that people are going to reap the consequences of their attitudes and behaviors. If someone is a dick on the forums, then there's a chance they're a dick in real life too, and this is going to get them into shit. As evidence, I cite the growing number of cool forum members who have hot real-life girlfriends. _________________ everything is changing
a constant flow
our existence - a photograph
the time - like slow-motion
did someone realize
that our life is based
on the history we've been taught
we are living the results of a lie
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:
transientangent wrote:
Well I think part of what you're hearing is just an attempt at dark (or light) humor, a sort of "I hope they get something to balance this out." On the other hand it's not too difficult to believe that people are going to reap the consequences of their attitudes and behaviors. If someone is a dick on the forums, then there's a chance they're a dick in real life too, and this is going to get them into shit. As evidence, I cite the growing number of cool forum members who have hot real-life girlfriends.
lol, understood the point! not what i was looking for but understood! LOL _________________ "Love Life"
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject:
WOOOOOOOOT wrote:
I always like to think theres something around called Karma.
Its nice to know if you do nice things it will come right back to you.
true, but how? under an Atheistic point of view it seems impossible, mind you and Atheistic point of view that nulifies the supernatural _________________ "Love Life"
Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 2503 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: California
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject:
Newman wrote:
WOOOOOOOOT wrote:
I always like to think theres something around called Karma.
Its nice to know if you do nice things it will come right back to you.
true, but how? under an Atheistic point of view it seems impossible, mind you and Atheistic point of view that nulifies the supernatural
Not necessarily. If you do nice things for someone, it's somewhat logical that a nice gesture will be returned at some point. Making the jump to an afterlife or supernatural connection is another matter. _________________ "Agnostics: Atheists without balls." -Stephen Colbert
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject:
gnosis wrote:
Newman wrote:
WOOOOOOOOT wrote:
I always like to think theres something around called Karma.
Its nice to know if you do nice things it will come right back to you.
true, but how? under an Atheistic point of view it seems impossible, mind you and Atheistic point of view that nulifies the supernatural
Not necessarily. If you do nice things for someone, it's somewhat logical that a nice gesture will be returned at some point. Making the jump to an afterlife or supernatural connection is another matter.
very true, but your situation I believe would not be considered Karma, off course if I do something nice to you at some point you will remember and a nice gesture would return, i understand this, but thats not karma. _________________ "Love Life"
Philosophos When we look at you, we see an asshole
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 9299 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: In ur body cast
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:
One thing to add. Buddhist karma doesn't act like other Dharmic religions in that it "balances things out" as described above. It's my understanding that in Hinduism, for instance, Karma in one life will necessarily balance things out in another, or in this life. But things will balance out. That's how Hinduism answers the question: why do bad things happen to good people (and vice versa).
In Buddhism, it's not quite like that. Why? Well, the short answer is that karma itself is interdependent - the "action" that occurs is dependent upon the person who is acting, and other actions around it. For example; a generally "good" person (there's really no such thing as good in Buddhism - more "expedient", but I'm getting off track) who does a "bad" thing will simply not be affected as much as a "bad" person will. Thus, karma kinda acts in Buddhism like ink in water. Put ink in a small glass of water, and it will darken significantly. Put ink in a bathtub, and it won't.
Thus, things don't simply "balance out" in Buddhism. Everything depends. _________________ Ass!
Hole!
Ass!
Hole!
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject:
Philosophos wrote:
One thing to add. Buddhist karma doesn't act like other Dharmic religions in that it "balances things out" as described above. It's my understanding that in Hinduism, for instance, Karma in one life will necessarily balance things out in another, or in this life. But things will balance out. That's how Hinduism answers the question: why do bad things happen to good people (and vice versa).
In Buddhism, it's not quite like that. Why? Well, the short answer is that karma itself is interdependent - the "action" that occurs is dependent upon the person who is acting, and other actions around it. For example; a generally "good" person (there's really no such thing as good in Buddhism - more "expedient", but I'm getting off track) who does a "bad" thing will simply not be affected as much as a "bad" person will. Thus, karma kinda acts in Buddhism like ink in water. Put ink in a small glass of water, and it will darken significantly. Put ink in a bathtub, and it won't.
Thus, things don't simply "balance out" in Buddhism. Everything depends.
because of your post, I am reading on it now...Thanks Philo _________________ "Love Life"
Philosophos When we look at you, we see an asshole
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 9299 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: In ur body cast
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:19 am Post subject:
Newman wrote:
because of your post, I am reading on it now...Thanks Philo
NP. If you're interested a bit more in karma, I have some books to recommend sections out of, but that may be more time and money than you want to spend on the matter.
One more comment: I don't understand karma to be supernaturally understood in any of the Dharmic religions, including Buddhism. It's simply an observation on the way things work, and there's no supernatural hand involved in guiding it at all. In fact, I think that karma could really be taken as a natural law throughout the Dharmic traditions.
Of course, it may get "supernatural" when applied to rebirth, reincarnation, souls, and gods, but that's another question.
(as an aside: I choose to use "rebirth" and "reincarnation" differently. I use "reincarnation" to mean the passage of a soul-like self from one life to the next, as Hinduism believes. This is because the roots for the word imply "getting put in a body again". Hinduism calls this "soul" the atta (Pali) or atman (Sanskrit). Buddhism specifically rejects the idea of a soul/self/atta. This is yet another fundamental Buddhist teaching called "anatta" ("anatman" in Sanskrit), or no-self. Buddhists thus reject reincarnation, but instead believe in "rebirth". The details of how this rebirth occurs, and even what it means when there's no self or soul to be found, varies amongst the different Buddhist traditions, so it'd take a while to explain) _________________ Ass!
Hole!
Ass!
Hole!
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:14 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:06 am Post subject:
Philosophos wrote:
Newman wrote:
because of your post, I am reading on it now...Thanks Philo
NP. If you're interested a bit more in karma, I have some books to recommend sections out of, but that may be more time and money than you want to spend on the matter.
One more comment: I don't understand karma to be supernaturally understood in any of the Dharmic religions, including Buddhism. It's simply an observation on the way things work, and there's no supernatural hand involved in guiding it at all. In fact, I think that karma could really be taken as a natural law throughout the Dharmic traditions.
Of course, it may get "supernatural" when applied to rebirth, reincarnation, souls, and gods, but that's another question.
(as an aside: I choose to use "rebirth" and "reincarnation" differently. I use "reincarnation" to mean the passage of a soul-like self from one life to the next, as Hinduism believes. This is because the roots for the word imply "getting put in a body again". Hinduism calls this "soul" the atta (Pali) or atman (Sanskrit). Buddhism specifically rejects the idea of a soul/self/atta. This is yet another fundamental Buddhist teaching called "anatta" ("anatman" in Sanskrit), or no-self. Buddhists thus reject reincarnation, but instead believe in "rebirth". The details of how this rebirth occurs, and even what it means when there's no self or soul to be found, varies amongst the different Buddhist traditions, so it'd take a while to explain)
Philo,
I would welcome your suggestion on books _________________ "Love Life"
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