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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | aileron wrote: | | Why do you assume that there are only two choices, they're lying or they should be believed? Can you think of other possibilities? |
Just keeping the post count down because any other variables would just be more speculation which is hocus pocus. Most here have suggested that the mother is lying. Since fraud is the one area that could logically be proved with investigation if it does exist, that is why I stick with just the one or the other. Naturally even if fraud isn't any part of it, it doesn't prove that the girl has experienced god so nobody has to believe the god part. I'm just emphasizing though that nobody can get into her mind so nobody can ever really know. |
Speculation is not hocus pocus; it's one part of the process of critical thinking. IMO even discounting the transcendental elements of the story, it is more plausible that the mother influenced the child as she herself awoke to Christianity, maybe without internalizing what was happening. I'm not making a firm conclusion, but playing the odds. Parents have more power over young children than vice versa. Children are eager to please at that age, and they note subtle and not so subtle cues from the parent what pleases their parent and what does not.
She need not be lying about her claim that it was her daughter who initiated it because that could be the way she remembers it. If I were to write my autobiography, it would not reflect my life as it actually is and has been, but as I remember it. People are not very good about remembering the events of their life the way they actually happened, but rather filter them through egocentric views and rationalizations. |
Please, don't take offense but your memories are not other people's. Speculation about another person's mind is only valid for critical thinking if you use it to ask them questions and dig for facts.
As far as memories go, many people journal and write diaries. Unless you know or ask these people directly, your speculations mean zilch and are no better than hocus pocus. I have written a great deal of my autobiography and it is accurate because I made a point of it being that way because I've written it as I've lived it. I expect that people who try to write it fifty years later might have a memory problem, I don't know.
Buy this audio tape, "My Dream is Bigger than I". I did. It contradicts everything you say. Naturally I can't know that the tape itself is completely accurate but it is most certainly more likely to be true than your odds?
http://www.elijahlist.com/downloadstore/messages/mp3_downloadteaching-s.htm |
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SteveInSF
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Local time: 2:16 AM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Yes, I am certain that she is connected to spirit and channeling according to her capabilities. |
That's incredible. What an extraordinary suspension of disbelief (or suspension of rationality) that must have taken. To believe that someone can recieve visions from a spirit must take an incredible amount of... what was it you asked for earlier....oh, EVIDENCE. Being that no credible evidence of this has been documented, I must asssume that this belief is do to personal experience.
Have you been 'connected to spirit'?
It must be an amazing experience...... |
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SteveInSF
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Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Local time: 2:16 AM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | I expect that people who try to write it fifty years later might have a memory problem, I don't know.
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Fifty years later, like the gospels? Or maybe Tacitus, Josephus and Pliny?
Certainly you aren't saying that this evidence of Christ's existence could be, dare I say, incorrect? |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12865
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | I've been researching more on Akiane quite a few hours this afternoon. I found some answers to some of the questions that have been discussed.
The mother didn't convert immediately. It was a gradual change but she couldn't say that there was any given moment when it all clicked in. She called it a time release capsule. Akiane had the visions and dreams start at 4 but didn't start painting until she was about 7. She forgot most of them from the early years, but her mother journaled some of them. She continues having visions that help inspire and guide her poetry and art.
She could see that Akiane was ok but she saw a difference in her from the time that she started sharing her dreams and visions. The immediate change was in her vocabulary. Her mother said Akiane was not a child that liked imaginative games. She didn't like dolls or fairy tales. She was an active child but more logical. It is because of this and her advanced vocabulary that she was open minded that something was happening. It began at 4. She was like any child though who needed her parents to tell her to go play or guide her choices when there is too much activity going on.
"Her family now considers themselves Christians but accept all faiths and after attending many churches did not find a church that was the right fit."
"Akiane told LifeSiteNews.com the origin of a particularly striking painting of Christ called "Prince of Peace". Akiane said that she saw Jesus in a vision and for a long time afterwards sought a suitable model to paint Christ as she saw Him in her vision. "For two years I was looking for a Jesus model in Colorado, I couldn't find anything. Then we moved to Idaho and I prayed to God, 'if you want me to paint this Jesus model please bring them through our front door'. Well then a couple of days later this carpenter - six feet tall - just perfect, just came right from the front door, and he was just perfect for my painting. It was so amazing and he agreed to be a model for me."
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That paragraph is for those who challenge what Jesus looked like vs. what he would really look like if he really existed. Her choices are based on her inspiration. |
So far this sounds like a gifted girl that was exposed to Jesus at some point by someone. I see no supernatural evidence here.
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: |
Have you been 'connected to spirit'?
It must be an amazing experience...... |
Yes. And it is sometimes amazing and mostly just fun. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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I painted a water color of god when I was six. He had 4 arms.
My mother congratulated me on my creativity. So there you have it. God has 4 arms. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | I expect that people who try to write it fifty years later might have a memory problem, I don't know.
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Fifty years later, like the gospels? Or maybe Tacitus, Josephus and Pliny?
Certainly you aren't saying that this evidence of Christ's existence could be, dare I say, incorrect? |
I could care less if Jesus did or didn't really exist. I see him as a composite figure myself but have great affection for some of his sayings. I think you have me confused for a christian? I was once but was fortunate to be part of a good secular background also. Some of the best thinkers are Jesuits you know  |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | I've been researching more on Akiane quite a few hours this afternoon. I found some answers to some of the questions that have been discussed.
The mother didn't convert immediately. It was a gradual change but she couldn't say that there was any given moment when it all clicked in. She called it a time release capsule. Akiane had the visions and dreams start at 4 but didn't start painting until she was about 7. She forgot most of them from the early years, but her mother journaled some of them. She continues having visions that help inspire and guide her poetry and art.
She could see that Akiane was ok but she saw a difference in her from the time that she started sharing her dreams and visions. The immediate change was in her vocabulary. Her mother said Akiane was not a child that liked imaginative games. She didn't like dolls or fairy tales. She was an active child but more logical. It is because of this and her advanced vocabulary that she was open minded that something was happening. It began at 4. She was like any child though who needed her parents to tell her to go play or guide her choices when there is too much activity going on.
"Her family now considers themselves Christians but accept all faiths and after attending many churches did not find a church that was the right fit."
"Akiane told LifeSiteNews.com the origin of a particularly striking painting of Christ called "Prince of Peace". Akiane said that she saw Jesus in a vision and for a long time afterwards sought a suitable model to paint Christ as she saw Him in her vision. "For two years I was looking for a Jesus model in Colorado, I couldn't find anything. Then we moved to Idaho and I prayed to God, 'if you want me to paint this Jesus model please bring them through our front door'. Well then a couple of days later this carpenter - six feet tall - just perfect, just came right from the front door, and he was just perfect for my painting. It was so amazing and he agreed to be a model for me."
"
That paragraph is for those who challenge what Jesus looked like vs. what he would really look like if he really existed. Her choices are based on her inspiration. |
So far this sounds like a gifted girl that was exposed to Jesus at some point by someone. I see no supernatural evidence here. |
This wasn't intended on being supernatural evidence. The discussion has been on the honesty of the mother and her atheism. I have no doubt that she was an atheist and a "true" one all her life prior to that. Buy the audio. She definitely talks like somebody that is very new to religion. Until you give evidence to the contraire, I accept the mother's story as being far more evidence than your imagination. |
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| cheapsuprise wrote: | I painted a water color of god when I was six. He had 4 arms.
My mother congratulated me on my creativity. So there you have it. God has 4 arms. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 8:16 AM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Artist(s) draw and paint whatever they happen to take interest in.
Here are a couple of her early drawings:
The religious aspect to her painting and life may be in the forefront publicity wise, but if her gallery is anything to go by, she seams to be equally interested in horses and dogs as she is Jesus. |
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aileron
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 610
Local time: 11:16 AM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Please, don't take offense but your memories are not other people's. |
I don't take offence at anything you write, though I'm pretty sure I was already aware that my memories are not the same as other people's.
| ShaSha wrote: | | Speculation about another person's mind is only valid for critical thinking if you use it to ask them questions and dig for facts. |
Not what I wrote at all.
| Quote: | | As far as memories go, many people journal and write diaries. |
It does not change the fact that the information they record and especially the information they choose to make public is filtered through egocentrism, rationalizations, and many other factors that distort the information we internalize.
| Quote: | | Unless you know or ask these people directly, your speculations mean zilch and are no better than hocus pocus. |
I am not speculating at all on this point. Research psychologists have studied these issues for decades. Have you studied their research?
| Quote: | | I have written a great deal of my autobiography and it is accurate because I made a point of it being that way because I've written it as I've lived it. |
Do you suppose that if you recorded the jist of a conversation later in the day and the other person in the conversation were to do the same, that they would concur on the points, the context, and the outcome? Why is it that when a plaintiff and a defendant testify about a conversation they had their accounts are almost always different? Is one of them necessarily lying? Do you suppose that if you witnessed something and had to testify in court that you would be accurate on most of the details? Why do you suppose that experts now consider eyewitness testimony one of the least reliable forms of evidence? I accept that I am subject to the human tendency to distort information as described by psychologists for decades. I am claiming that these people are subject to the same distortion of information. You are not claiming that my speculation means zilch; you are claiming that the scientific work of research psychologists means zilch.
| Quote: | | Buy this audio tape, "My Dream is Bigger than I". I did. It contradicts everything you say. |
Well, if it contradicts everything I say, which is simply a redux of the scientific consensus of how people distort information, then the scientific consensus is obviously wrong. |
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Uncertainty
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Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Feelings and dreams are poor evidence to go by for anything. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| cheapsuprise wrote: | Artist(s) draw and paint whatever they happen to take interest in.
Here are a couple of her early drawings:
The religious aspect to her painting and life may be in the forefront publicity wise, but if her gallery is anything to go by, she seams to be equally interested in horses and dogs as she is Jesus. |
Glad you noticed that too
Very little of her art is religious though you could say her interpretation is spiritual with many of her paintings. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: |
Well, if it contradicts everything I say, which is simply a redux of the scientific consensus of how people distort information, then the scientific consensus is obviously wrong. |
Yup, there is a lot of room for improvement in the world of Psychology and Psychiatry. I'm not saying many of them haven't done good some good. Many have and many have just made money like the psychics off of other people's misfortunes.
I agree with you about the possibility of two people not agreeing at the end of the day. I also know they can agree almost to the letter about an experience. That's why questioning becomes very important and even more of a reason why nobody here can even begin to know what was in the mind of the child or her mother. But because I do know that I can and have had total recall of many events in my life, others too can have that.
The key is if something extraordinary happens on any given day. Most people know exactly where they were, what they were doing, who they were with on 9/11 or the day Kennedy was shot. I do. I can tell you much about both days even though I didn't write any of it down.
I am not saying that there isn't room for error. I am saying that individuals have different talents and some of us have a talent for being more exact than others in our detailed observations. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:16 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Uncertainty wrote: | | Feelings and dreams are poor evidence to go by for anything. |
To the uneducated, yes. To those who study them, they are vast pools of knowledge. |
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