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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | Thanks for all of the comments but most of you are missing my challenge.
I asked in an earlier post if all here are used to lying that you cannot take another's word for their own autobiography? While I have lied in my lifetime it has been seldom and not when it comes to history of myself or my family.
Sooo, I have no choice but to give this family the benefit of the doubt over all of you. I could be completely wrong but nobody has given me any evidence to even remotely convince me that you are right and she is lying. I spent two hours reading over a hundred links and nada.
You claim you know them better than they themselves.
That is called "mind reading" and none of you believe that. So that is what I have been challenging over and over and over is your ability to mind read and all of you have been ignoring it.
You have no evidence of any kind anywhere about this family being and doing any different than their website shows.
My challenge has never been that she has or hasn't contacted god.
My challenge is to each of you who claim to know the inside of her mind better than she or her mother.
To the person who asked if children can be trusted, my answer is yes. It is amazing how children have no need to lie when they aren't lied to and are trusted and loved and guided instead of being forced to live by rules. Is this child one of them? I don't know. I do know that I was and my children were. |
Why do you assume that there are only two choices, they're lying or they should be believed? Can you think of other possibilities? |
Just keeping the post count down because any other variables would just be more speculation which is hocus pocus. Most here have suggested that the mother is lying. Since fraud is the one area that could logically be proved with investigation if it does exist, that is why I stick with just the one or the other. Naturally even if fraud isn't any part of it, it doesn't prove that the girl has experienced god so nobody has to believe the god part. I'm just emphasizing though that nobody can get into her mind so nobody can ever really know. |
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3064
Local time: 4:34 PM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | | No no no. Don't you see. People who make religiously -or otherwise supernaturally stemmed claims should be given an unfair advantage. Rickcopeland being considered the great goldpooper, denied, the little girl being preceived an antenna of the ultimate magical superghost, accepted. Rick should get with the program and start claiming to fart the words of angels. |
You're not denying I shit gold bullion, are you? I pity the foo' who denies... I challenge all who disbelieve to prove I don't... And don't bather taking samples. Just because I don't always have the Midas colon doesn't mean I never do...
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3064
Local time: 4:34 PM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Has it really been demonstrated that the little girl is herself producing the paintings?
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“I think it’s also important for the President to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.”
-- George W. Bush on Clinton's involvement in Kosovo, 1999
"Syphilis is the algebra of infection."
(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)
Can't... fight... any... longer... must.. help.. bunny.. achieve.. global.. domination.. All.. hail... bunny...
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Obermeister wrote: | | SteveInSF wrote: |
Who cares if the mother wasn't a believer? By her own admission, she converted to Christianity when the child was four. That gives the child two years of indoctrination before she picks up a brush and five years before she painted the same version of Jesus that we have seen in the west for centuries.
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Excellent point...I didn't quite pick up that fact from the video on the timeline...Need to watch it again. |
Do listen again and you also SteveINSF. I just listened to it again and the mother did not say that she converted to Christianity when the child was four.
What the tape says is the child experienced "god" at that age and told her mother about those experiences. The mother "eventually" started believing in god also according to the tape. I don't think I have to define eventually for anyone here to show that it proves nothing about where she got so called indoctrination or what timeframe it was?
Also if you listen to the tape, there is no mention of christianity, only god.
Here is another tape and again, only god not christ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdIVeBo8SE
I'll do more research on this later but I am somewhat confident that she is spiritually inclined, not christian. IOW, New Agey  |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | C'mon...it' just common sense.  |
I believe it is common sense that common sense is not part of the scientific proof  |
No, common sense is what brings us to logical conclusions (called hypotheses) which can be tested scientifically.
Magical thinking is not part of the scientific method. Coincidence? 
Which makes more sense?
1)God inspired a 10 year old to paint a picture of a caucasian, green-eyed man called "Jesus", who may or may not have actually existed but if he did, (a)Was born of a virgin which is impossible, (b)Performed miracles which are impossible, and (c)Died and rose from the dead only to ascend bodily to "Heaven" which is impossible, or:
2)A young girl had a concept of a religious icon and painted it.
Occam's Razor takes care of this rather nicely, if you're having trouble deciding. |
Mr. C, common sense doesn't mean making stuff up. So far you've been making everything up. Common sense is misused too easily so let's get away from that. My hubby used to say it was common sense how to do electrical wiring on a house. I begged to differ with him. It wasn't. Most of us would electrocute ourselves. He was very gifted in electronic everything and just didn't know that others didn't pick up that stuff at a very young age
Where did god inspire this girl to paint a green - eyed Jesus? Where is the virgin birth even brought into her paintings? What miracles have been mentioned by this girl? Where is the risen from the dead brought in? Where is the ascension brought in? Please give me links at least and I will gladly concede on those points.
Occam's tells me that you are believing what you are used to seeing and thinking, not what the girl "might have perceived". I will be doing more reading on her site later today. I remember reading somewhere that her family is non denominational which includes buddha etc. As I mention above, I believe she is new agey which easily can include pictures similar to "Jesus" without being him. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: |
ShaSha, dear, sweetheart, beloved. I still love you, even though you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster.  |
The feeling is mutual, CET   |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | ShaSha,
I've seen a few reasonable explanations as to where she might have gotten the idea or mental picture of Jesus and heaven, but no one here has claimed to know exactly what is going on in her head. So, she can paint a pattern. What does that mean and how does it correlate with your belief that god and heaven exist? I can draw and paint things from my dreams, too, but that doesn't mean that what I'm seeing is divinely inspired.
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Chrissy, there are many here who have suggested very strongly that she got her images from brainwashing or the equvialent thereof. Others have suggested that her parents set the whole situation up. That is where I've challenged their assumptions and asked for evidence of their abilities to read minds. I stand by it. I have also said I don't know. I can only go by the family's words and also my own opinions from my experiences. Unless and until evidence is given by any here, I will give the family the benefit of the doubt that they are telling it like it is.
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This all boils down to what a person is willing to believe. You seem to believe in the possibility that god reveals itself to humans through visions and dreams. I don't believe that the god she speaks of even exists, so obviously I'm very skeptical when it comes to these sort of claims. While I am not completely closed to the existence of a god, this idea of a personal, communicating god is 100% bullshit in my book. |
Because of your last sentence you've pretty well closed your mind to any answer I might give? Otherwise your questions are fair so I'll give it a shot. You are correct. I do believe that god can reveal through visions and dreams but not all dreams and visions reveal the aspect of god that "might" be coming through Akiane.
From looking at her paintings as well as reading her poetry, the odds are good to me that she has tapped into what we new agers call source. That is the creative energy that is personal to each of us thus our experiences will be different. Many are similar enough so that we can relate to each other even though we know it isn't exactly the same.
Knowledge is given that the individual wouldn't know otherwise and the individual then brings it through in earthly terms although the purity of the experience cannot be conveyed exactly. In the tape when Akiane speaks of god, she says he is "light" and then mumbles something and speaks of the beauty. The painting is of a male that is quite "beautiful" "feminine" which to me suggests the balance of male and female that she is experiencing.
I myself like some of her work and don't like other parts but that is normal in my appreciation of other artists and poets. That I might see some of it or even all of it as inspired by god, doesn't mean that I have to personally like it or be inspired by it. There is no blasphemy or hurt "feelings" with the god I perceive |
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aileron
Forum Leader
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 610
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | aileron wrote: | | Why do you assume that there are only two choices, they're lying or they should be believed? Can you think of other possibilities? |
Just keeping the post count down because any other variables would just be more speculation which is hocus pocus. Most here have suggested that the mother is lying. Since fraud is the one area that could logically be proved with investigation if it does exist, that is why I stick with just the one or the other. Naturally even if fraud isn't any part of it, it doesn't prove that the girl has experienced god so nobody has to believe the god part. I'm just emphasizing though that nobody can get into her mind so nobody can ever really know. |
Speculation is not hocus pocus; it's one part of the process of critical thinking. IMO even discounting the transcendental elements of the story, it is more plausible that the mother influenced the child as she herself awoke to Christianity, maybe without internalizing what was happening. I'm not making a firm conclusion, but playing the odds. Parents have more power over young children than vice versa. Children are eager to please at that age, and they note subtle and not so subtle cues from the parent what pleases their parent and what does not.
She need not be lying about her claim that it was her daughter who initiated it because that could be the way she remembers it. If I were to write my autobiography, it would not reflect my life as it actually is and has been, but as I remember it. People are not very good about remembering the events of their life the way they actually happened, but rather filter them through egocentric views and rationalizations. |
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| rickcopeland648 wrote: | | Has it really been demonstrated that the little girl is herself producing the paintings? |
Of course not as to this forum. Even if somebody here claimed they witnessed her producing it, that isn't demonstrating to the rest of us.
Haven't you done a Google search using her name and hoax as the keywords? That will at least give a likely answer to your question. I searched the other day with those keywords. |
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SteveInSF
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Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Local time: 2:34 AM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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ShaSha, do you believe that this girl is recieving visions from God?
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Ulfgar
Delicious Dish.
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
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Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ulfgar wrote: | | She's exceptional for her age, I hope she doesn't get stuck in a single style, though, I want to see what this girl is capable of in 10 years. |
Magical realism is a very perfectionist format, and perfectionism can also be a creatively dead end. It would be cool to see her break the nobelkitch barrier, and produce some real art.
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Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ulfgar wrote: | | She's exceptional for her age, I hope she doesn't get stuck in a single style, though, I want to see what this girl is capable of in 10 years. |
Agreed. I just spent quite awhile looking at her art and reading the poems that go with it. I must say I am impressed by some of the poems and much of the art. She gives some narration to her art and through her eyes, the art again becomes new.
I too plan on on keeping an eye on her. I was artistic at young age but of course she paints circles around anything I did. I believe she will expand in her choices of art. How could she not? |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I've been researching more on Akiane quite a few hours this afternoon. I found some answers to some of the questions that have been discussed.
The mother didn't convert immediately. It was a gradual change but she couldn't say that there was any given moment when it all clicked in. She called it a time release capsule. Akiane had the visions and dreams start at 4 but didn't start painting until she was about 7. She forgot most of them from the early years, but her mother journaled some of them. She continues having visions that help inspire and guide her poetry and art.
She could see that Akiane was ok but she saw a difference in her from the time that she started sharing her dreams and visions. The immediate change was in her vocabulary. Her mother said Akiane was not a child that liked imaginative games. She didn't like dolls or fairy tales. She was an active child but more logical. It is because of this and her advanced vocabulary that she was open minded that something was happening. It began at 4. She was like any child though who needed her parents to tell her to go play or guide her choices when there is too much activity going on.
"Her family now considers themselves Christians but accept all faiths and after attending many churches did not find a church that was the right fit."
"Akiane told LifeSiteNews.com the origin of a particularly striking painting of Christ called "Prince of Peace". Akiane said that she saw Jesus in a vision and for a long time afterwards sought a suitable model to paint Christ as she saw Him in her vision. "For two years I was looking for a Jesus model in Colorado, I couldn't find anything. Then we moved to Idaho and I prayed to God, 'if you want me to paint this Jesus model please bring them through our front door'. Well then a couple of days later this carpenter - six feet tall - just perfect, just came right from the front door, and he was just perfect for my painting. It was so amazing and he agreed to be a model for me."
"
That paragraph is for those who challenge what Jesus looked like vs. what he would really look like if he really existed. Her choices are based on her inspiration. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
Local time: 10:34 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: | | ShaSha, do you believe that this girl is recieving visions from God? |
Today was the 3rd time I've researched her. I dug deeper than the previous times and found more data. Yes, I am certain that she is connected to spirit and channeling according to her capabilities. As she matures, she has the potential to present it differently and more clearly. |
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