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Jason_Harvestdancer
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
At least, unlike yours, my Gods aren't Schizophrenic.
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
At least, unlike yours, my Gods aren't Schizophrenic. |
No, but apparently you might be due to your projected idea of god in plural form.
I tease. I whip.
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chookrooter
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Insanity |
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Moloth "When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane?"
CR: Short answer; No.
Once about 30 years ago, I told a shrink "I think I'm going crazy"
His response;he laughed and said "No,you're not going crazy. I assure you, if you were,you'd be the LAST to know"
Is Missionary crazy? Probably not in the clinical sense**.I don't know or care for sure . In the vernacular ? Crazy as a loon.
It's a troll and a pig ignorant twat.
Ergo, I won't deal directly with it directly,merely snipe from the side. Yeah, I know,that still really qualifies as "feeding the troll": Worst thing you can do to a troll is ignore it completely.
** It's pretty neurotic,and possibly suffering from OCD, or a personality disorder such a histrionic or narcissistic. As it seems to lack both empathy and insight, it may well be a little psychotic. |
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Hugga_Bear
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Hugga_Bear wrote: | If God requires my heart then it is a terrible shame but I am currently putting it to good use.
I will ask you a question, why does your God require utter devotion, face down worship and for us to sing our praise and love to it?
An omnimax being surely cares little for such things and surely a benevolent being would rather we were good for good's sake rather than through fear of it? Or even love of it. THen we are trying to do it to make it love us back, which is selfish. Worshipping is illogical to the extreme, if your God is pure then renounce your worship and simply be a good person.
How do you be good without a bible? Fairly easily, help other people, make your life absolutely worthless to yourself and start giving aid, even if its as little as an idea, tips on how to get that girl your friend dreams about or stopping during the 400m race to help your rival who has fallen and twisted his ankle.
It doesnt take much and damnit if that is not enough then it is no god
Miss, since your deluded friend ran away I am curious to see your answer. |
You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
Fine Ill simplify my question for you.
Why should a god require worship or love toward it of any kind? Is helping one another not enough for it?
Thats the most basic version. go shoot. |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Hugga_Bear wrote: | If God requires my heart then it is a terrible shame but I am currently putting it to good use.
I will ask you a question, why does your God require utter devotion, face down worship and for us to sing our praise and love to it?
An omnimax being surely cares little for such things and surely a benevolent being would rather we were good for good's sake rather than through fear of it? Or even love of it. THen we are trying to do it to make it love us back, which is selfish. Worshipping is illogical to the extreme, if your God is pure then renounce your worship and simply be a good person.
How do you be good without a bible? Fairly easily, help other people, make your life absolutely worthless to yourself and start giving aid, even if its as little as an idea, tips on how to get that girl your friend dreams about or stopping during the 400m race to help your rival who has fallen and twisted his ankle.
It doesnt take much and damnit if that is not enough then it is no god
Miss, since your deluded friend ran away I am curious to see your answer. |
You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
Fine Ill simplify my question for you.
Why should a god require worship or love toward it of any kind? Is helping one another not enough for it?
Thats the most basic version. go shoot. |
The flaw in your question is your understanding of God's expectation to be a 'requirement'; the proper concept is expectation. You've co-mingled 'worship' and 'love', reversed the order, and removed the appropriate motivation of worship being an expression of love. You arrive at 'helping one another' as though it's "enough for it" without realizing that it too is intended to be an expression of love motivated by the primary relationship with the source of all love: God.
God expects us to worship Him as an expression of reverence and thanksgiving to Him for saving us from death. But God wants even more than that. God also expects us to be obedient to Him because He knows all. He expects not only for us to love Him because He is the source; He expects us to act justly towards each other, to show love and compassion to others. In this way, we present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to Him. The focus of God is others, not self. Humans focus on self gain/benefit.
True love radiates from Him alone. When we receive His love we are then able to return true love back towards Him in the form of worship. This completes the "circuit" of God's love/relationship. It is only at that point that God's love in us radiates towards those around us. To circumvent first receiving love from it's source is part of fallen man's rebellion of "I don't need God's love".
What humans express towards one another is an imperfect and flawed form of love motivated by self-interest whereas God's love is "others focused" and giving; ie. eternal life. True love can only be received from God, therefore cannot be expressed by humans apart from God. Humans have nothing to offer. |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | | Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
At least, unlike yours, my Gods aren't Schizophrenic. |
No, but apparently you might be due to your projected idea of god in plural form.
I tease. I whip. |
Sokay.
I was hoping to get Missonary to respond, but he's fixated on atheists. I think I scare him.
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Missionary
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: |
I was hoping to get Missonary to respond, but he's fixated on atheists. I think I scare him. |
You mean to say that you had hoped I would react to your projection. You dropped a turd. There's nothing to respond to. I suppose my only reaction would be, " there goes Jason_Harvestdancer dropping a turd again; no surprise there...I wonder why he believes they're golden eggs? Hmmm." |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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So I do scare you.
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Missionary
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | So I do scare you. |
You are a tad peculiar, Mr. Harvestdancer; I'll give you that. You do have me now interested in your self image of projecting peculiar and being scary as an intentional behavior. Do you see yourself as one of those immortal vampire undeads or something? Reincarnated initiate? Time traveling occultist? |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | ChrissyFos wrote: | | Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | You're co-mingling multiple concepts and as a result confusing the issues which leads to an assumption and flawed conclusion of what God requires as well as a complete misunderstanding of man's motivation. The questions and inferences are so far off I'll have to write something up...maybe tomorrow. |
At least, unlike yours, my Gods aren't Schizophrenic. |
No, but apparently you might be due to your projected idea of god in plural form.
I tease. I whip. |
Sokay.
I was hoping to get Missonary to respond, but he's fixated on atheists. I think I scare him. |
His god's trinity triforce Mecca versus your god's plurality should make for an interesting Clash of the Titans.
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Jason_Harvestdancer
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | So I do scare you. |
You are a tad peculiar, Mr. Harvestdancer; I'll give you that. You do have me now interested in your self image of projecting peculiar and being scary as an intentional behavior. Do you see yourself as one of those immortal vampire undeads or something? Reincarnated initiate? Time traveling occultist? |
Immortal vampire undead? Time Traveler? Goodness I do give you a fright.
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Hugga_Bear
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: |
The flaw in your question is your understanding of God's expectation to be a 'requirement'; the proper concept is expectation. You've co-mingled 'worship' and 'love', reversed the order, and removed the appropriate motivation of worship being an expression of love. You arrive at 'helping one another' as though it's "enough for it" without realizing that it too is intended to be an expression of love motivated by the primary relationship with the source of all love: God. |
Worship is not, not not not an expression of love, not in the way it is being performed by theists, worship your god in your head as you do your lover, just add clothes.
So why is it not enough for your God simply for us to help eachother? Since it is a way of loving him and loving him is akin to worshipping him can he sod off and let me be a doctor now?
| Missionary wrote: | | God expects us to worship Him as an expression of reverence and thanksgiving to Him for saving us from death. But God wants even more than that. God also expects us to be obedient to Him because He knows all. He expects not only for us to love Him because He is the source; He expects us to act justly towards each other, to show love and compassion to others. In this way, we present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to Him. The focus of God is others, not self. Humans focus on self gain/benefit. |
Just because you are smarter than someone doesn't mean you should make them obey, Im a brilliant computer gamer and happen to be bloody brilliant at COD4. But I don't get frustrated or force my teammates to do what I want, even though i know it is the correct path, I let them do their thing, I don't try to dissuade them because that's controlling and slightly OCD.
Genes do indeed focus on self gain/benefit but this has (clearly) led to altruism within close knit communities which has remained to this day despite humanitys rapid progression froom tight knit communities to being co mingled with everyone. However this is invoking the theory of evolution and its hypothesis of gene selection. As such my reply to you is this: Again is not treating one another well enough? That was my original point and you have just confirmed it, no? Should an all powerful being care if we worship it? No, thats vanity. If our love is all it requires then again, we should love eachother not it. If it is omniscient then we can also argue that unless solid, unfalsifiable evidence of it exists I wont believe in it and as such my love for other people has to be enough for it.
| Missionary wrote: | | True love radiates from Him alone. When we receive His love we are then able to return true love back towards Him in the form of worship. This completes the "circuit" of God's love/relationship. It is only at that point that God's love in us radiates towards those around us. To circumvent first receiving love from it's source is part of fallen man's rebellion of "I don't need God's love". |
So if you are an atheist/agnostic/anything but devout christian you do not feel love? I call bullshit miss. Why should a God need love returned to it if it radiates it in the first place? Its the Ill kill myself to get rid of the sin I gave you argument all over again. It doesn't make sense.
| Missionary wrote: | | What humans express towards one another is an imperfect and flawed form of love motivated by self-interest whereas God's love is "others focused" and giving; ie. eternal life. True love can only be received from God, therefore cannot be expressed by humans apart from God. Humans have nothing to offer. |
Ill grant you that, everything everything and everything a human wants to do is out of self interest, by evolutions laws it has to be. If not then we'd want to get ourselves and our family killed (understand?) But you said we could return true love, then you said we have nothing to offer.
If we have nothing to offer and our love is flawed then answer me this: what is the point in attempting to worship it? What is the point in loving? i should go kill myself. (/being an atheist strawman)
but seriously your last point contradicts the rest doesnt it? and even if it doesnt we're back to my original point: Why worship? If worship is love and love is flawed then surely carrying on in our lives is the best course of action? |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: |
The flaw in your question is your understanding of God's expectation to be a 'requirement'; the proper concept is expectation. You've co-mingled 'worship' and 'love', reversed the order, and removed the appropriate motivation of worship being an expression of love. You arrive at 'helping one another' as though it's "enough for it" without realizing that it too is intended to be an expression of love motivated by the primary relationship with the source of all love: God. |
Worship is not, not not not an expression of love, not in the way it is being performed by theists, worship your god in your head as you do your lover, just add clothes.
So why is it not enough for your God simply for us to help eachother? Since it is a way of loving him and loving him is akin to worshipping him can he sod off and let me be a doctor now?
| Missionary wrote: | | God expects us to worship Him as an expression of reverence and thanksgiving to Him for saving us from death. But God wants even more than that. God also expects us to be obedient to Him because He knows all. He expects not only for us to love Him because He is the source; He expects us to act justly towards each other, to show love and compassion to others. In this way, we present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to Him. The focus of God is others, not self. Humans focus on self gain/benefit. |
Just because you are smarter than someone doesn't mean you should make them obey, Im a brilliant computer gamer and happen to be bloody brilliant at COD4. But I don't get frustrated or force my teammates to do what I want, even though i know it is the correct path, I let them do their thing, I don't try to dissuade them because that's controlling and slightly OCD.
Genes do indeed focus on self gain/benefit but this has (clearly) led to altruism within close knit communities which has remained to this day despite humanitys rapid progression froom tight knit communities to being co mingled with everyone. However this is invoking the theory of evolution and its hypothesis of gene selection. As such my reply to you is this: Again is not treating one another well enough? That was my original point and you have just confirmed it, no? Should an all powerful being care if we worship it? No, thats vanity. If our love is all it requires then again, we should love eachother not it. If it is omniscient then we can also argue that unless solid, unfalsifiable evidence of it exists I wont believe in it and as such my love for other people has to be enough for it. |
Worship is indeed the highest form and expression of love, devotion, admiration, respect, and reverence directed at the only one deserving of this expression. I understand you've never experienced this desire to understand it. I don't expect your agreement here.
God isn't just 'smarter' or more knowledgeable as though He has a few pretty good ideas. He is all knowing which means He doesn't make decisions or ponder consequences of various outcomes. He determines and acts without hesitation because everything He does is right and perfect. As a result, His created beings are expected to follow His lead and do as He instructs without explanation. We obey out of trust and knowledge that He does in fact know exactly what to do in every situation and that He alone determines eternity. We are participants in His plan and purposes. We are not free agents of determinism. Obedience isn't just a good idea it is a requirement. For example, the CEO of a company may or may not accept ideas and act on them but whatever direction he points the company is precisely the direction it will go; with or without your cooperation. You are expected to carry out the tasks assigned to you and conform to the directives of the CEO. God on the other hand does not need your input, ideas, or suggestions to ponder His next move. He already knows and points the direction with or without your cooperation.
You asked, "So why is it not enough for your God simply for us to help eachother?". It's simple as I explained but let me word it differently. True love is ONLY available from God. You're attempting to sidestep and refusing to acknowledge the source of this love you want to express toward another person. When you "love" apart from the source of true love, you're actually substituting a counterfeit and defective form of love. See below.
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | True love radiates from Him alone. When we receive His love we are then able to return true love back towards Him in the form of worship. This completes the "circuit" of God's love/relationship. It is only at that point that God's love in us radiates towards those around us. To circumvent first receiving love from it's source is part of fallen man's rebellion of "I don't need God's love". |
So if you are an atheist/agnostic/anything but devout christian you do not feel love? I call bullshit miss. Why should a God need love returned to it if it radiates it in the first place? Its the Ill kill myself to get rid of the sin I gave you argument all over again. It doesn't make sense. |
You drink water. You've got water and hold up a glass of it. You can offer water to all your friends and talk about how plentiful the water is at Hugga Bears place. Well, I'll agree it's alot like water and will do in a pinch. But once you've had pure Fiji water straight from the source, tap water looks yellow. Filtered water seems like it's missing that zing. All other water just doesn't measure up.
It's impure. It takes instead of gives selflessly. It's centered on self and not completely and utterly centered on others. There's always a string attached or a study to determine what the gain/benefit to cost/loss ratio values will amount to. Human love often has conditions that need to be met and when they're not then love is withheld or retracted. Humans often invoke, "I'll do this IF/WHEN you do that". Humans keep tabs and scores and hold grudges.
Now, take the preceding paragraph and your instinctive reaction will be to project these very same emotional reactions on God. You've already assumed He is vain and self-centered. You'll assume His love is conditional with strings attached with conditions that need to be met and He retracts His love when you fail because He keeps tabs and grudges making you pay eternally...right? You're not alone in projecting human thinking on God. However the assumptions are entirely misplaced.
God's love is perfectly pure towards all people. It is the individual person who rejects His advances. As a result their free will choice of remaining separated from Him is granted. That person will be separated from life, light, love, peace and exist in death, darkness, hate, unrest. That is not a result of God's rejection of a person. It is the person's rejection of God. But wait! You may claim that you don't know or haven't seen evidence. On the contrary, God has stated that you have seen the evidence AND that He has manifested the knowledge of His existence in every single person. Like a homing beacon. In fact, He's stated quite clearly there will be no excuse. So, the choice is made by the individual person and the responsibility and accountability for their eternal destination lies squarely with them not with God.
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | What humans express towards one another is an imperfect and flawed form of love motivated by self-interest whereas God's love is "others focused" and giving; ie. eternal life. True love can only be received from God, therefore cannot be expressed by humans apart from God. Humans have nothing to offer. |
Ill grant you that, everything everything and everything a human wants to do is out of self interest, by evolutions laws it has to be. If not then we'd want to get ourselves and our family killed (understand?) But you said we could return true love, then you said we have nothing to offer.
If we have nothing to offer and our love is flawed then answer me this: what is the point in attempting to worship it? What is the point in loving? i should go kill myself. (/being an atheist strawman)
but seriously your last point contradicts the rest doesnt it? and even if it doesnt we're back to my original point: Why worship? If worship is love and love is flawed then surely carrying on in our lives is the best course of action? |
We CAN receive True Love and for the first time EXPRESS true love in the context that it was designed to be experienced...with our Creator! We receive God's love and respond by loving Him in return. Being filled with God's love, He then points and directs His love IN US towards other people. Remember when Jesus was asked ...what is the greatest commandment? Jesus replied, Love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul AND love your neighbor as yourself. Most people leave out the first part and then call the second part "the golden rule". The first part is the most important because without it, we CANNOT even begin to practice the second part.
Our worship of God is the act of returning His love in us back to Him. It is the cycle or circuit of true love. |
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Hugga_Bear
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Worship is indeed the highest form and expression of love, devotion, admiration, respect, and reverence directed at the only one deserving of this expression. I understand you've never experienced this desire to understand it. I don't expect your agreement here. |
I agreed, just not in the sense you follow, worship should not be out loud, why should it? Love is love regardless of who you preach it to. I understand why you would want to preach to us that we must love god, it is out of interest for us (though it is misplaced). Worshipping together just makes it seem more forced (which it is some of the time) and less like love, more like slavery. My point is worship is a loving thing, most people idolise that person, but they dont bow on their knees, or refuse to look upon them for their holiness is too great, no being can be that great, even an omnimax should be looked upon.
| Missionary wrote: | | God isn't just 'smarter' or more knowledgeable as though He has a few pretty good ideas. He is all knowing which means He doesn't make decisions or ponder consequences of various outcomes. He determines and acts without hesitation because everything He does is right and perfect. As a result, His created beings are expected to follow His lead and do as He instructs without explanation. We obey out of trust and knowledge that He does in fact know exactly what to do in every situation and that He alone determines eternity. We are participants in His plan and purposes. We are not free agents of determinism. Obedience isn't just a good idea it is a requirement. For example, the CEO of a company may or may not accept ideas and act on them but whatever direction he points the company is precisely the direction it will go; with or without your cooperation. You are expected to carry out the tasks assigned to you and conform to the directives of the CEO. God on the other hand does not need your input, ideas, or suggestions to ponder His next move. He already knows and points the direction with or without your cooperation. |
ah I see your point. However doesn't this completely remove free will? And what about the argument i have seen you use before (the great deceiver) how do we know who is guiding us? For the King of lies can be very, very tricky indeed.
| Missionary wrote: | | You asked, "So why is it not enough for your God simply for us to help eachother?". It's simple as I explained but let me word it differently. True love is ONLY available from God. You're attempting to sidestep and refusing to acknowledge the source of this love you want to express toward another person. When you "love" apart from the source of true love, you're actually substituting a counterfeit and defective form of love. |
Prove it. Thats my problem here, there is no way of knowing if this is true unless Yahweh waltzes down and says, "yeah, what he said".
IF, theoretically, Yahweh is the only source of true love and our love is untainted when returned to it then yes, very well it makes sense to love it. However I do not believe that, Yahweh is not all loving, look at the bible, you yourself say it, he will give no quarter, there can be no excuse. I could not love such a creature. I will grant you the premise if its base holds true, but I would not follow, it is not a kind, lovable creature, but spiny, irritable and jealous. Hording love.
| Missionary wrote: | You drink water. You've got water and hold up a glass of it. You can offer water to all your friends and talk about how plentiful the water is at Hugga Bears place. Well, I'll agree it's alot like water and will do in a pinch. But once you've had pure Fiji water straight from the source, tap water looks yellow. Filtered water seems like it's missing that zing. All other water just doesn't measure up.
It's impure. It takes instead of gives selflessly. It's centered on self and not completely and utterly centered on others. There's always a string attached or a study to determine what the gain/benefit to cost/loss ratio values will amount to. Human love often has conditions that need to be met and when they're not then love is withheld or retracted. Humans often invoke, "I'll do this IF/WHEN you do that". Humans keep tabs and scores and hold grudges. |
You didnt answer my question, why send out love for it to be returned? An omnimax being has no need to discover who loves it, it does not need our minds to twist its love (or even risk tainting it), so why? it is not for our benefit as we can love others without turning to it.
| Missionary wrote: | | Now, take the preceding paragraph and your instinctive reaction will be to project these very same emotional reactions on God. You've already assumed He is vain and self-centered. You'll assume His love is conditional with strings attached with conditions that need to be met and He retracts His love when you fail because He keeps tabs and grudges making you pay eternally...right? You're not alone in projecting human thinking on God. However the assumptions are entirely misplaced. |
I did not assume such things, I said that were it true that it wanted us to worship it then it is vain, this s a true statement. Being self centred comes from vanity and as such is supported by the statement. So again, why does it demand our worship? Or, why does it demand our love?
| Missionary wrote: | We CAN receive True Love and for the first time EXPRESS true love in the context that it was designed to be experienced...with our Creator! We receive God's love and respond by loving Him in return. Being filled with God's love, He then points and directs His love IN US towards other people. Remember when Jesus was asked ...what is the greatest commandment? Jesus replied, Love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul AND love your neighbor as yourself. Most people leave out the first part and then call the second part "the golden rule". The first part is the most important because without it, we CANNOT even begin to practice the second part.
Our worship of God is the act of returning His love in us back to Him. It is the cycle or circuit of true love. |
Again I do not support the bible but assuming its truth:
you have contradicted yourself again, you say our love is tainted yet now you say it forms true love, if it only forms true love when we love our creator then I can turn my argument on its head, why love anyone else? Surely we should just love Yahweh as it is beautiful and magnificent and is the only way of feeling true love? Loving someone else is idiocy, surely? Why do we need anyone else, surely we should all just sit down somewhere, close our eyes and project all our love upwards in the hopes that it would smack into him. |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Worship is indeed the highest form and expression of love, devotion, admiration, respect, and reverence directed at the only one deserving of this expression. I understand you've never experienced this desire to understand it. I don't expect your agreement here. |
I agreed, just not in the sense you follow, worship should not be out loud, why should it? Love is love regardless of who you preach it to. I understand why you would want to preach to us that we must love god, it is out of interest for us (though it is misplaced). Worshipping together just makes it seem more forced (which it is some of the time) and less like love, more like slavery. My point is worship is a loving thing, most people idolise that person, but they dont bow on their knees, or refuse to look upon them for their holiness is too great, no being can be that great, even an omnimax should be looked upon. |
For the same reasons your wife is pleased to hear you say, "I love you honey." For the same reason you are pleased to hear the wife and kids cry, "Happy Father's day Dad...you're the best-ist EVER!" The same goes for when the whole family gathers for Mee-Maws birthday or Paw-Paw's funeral....none of which is forced. The expressions of love, respect, devotion, admiration are vocal, physically expressed, and collectively corporate.
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | God isn't just 'smarter' or more knowledgeable as though He has a few pretty good ideas. He is all knowing which means He doesn't make decisions or ponder consequences of various outcomes. He determines and acts without hesitation because everything He does is right and perfect. As a result, His created beings are expected to follow His lead and do as He instructs without explanation. We obey out of trust and knowledge that He does in fact know exactly what to do in every situation and that He alone determines eternity. We are participants in His plan and purposes. We are not free agents of determinism. Obedience isn't just a good idea it is a requirement. For example, the CEO of a company may or may not accept ideas and act on them but whatever direction he points the company is precisely the direction it will go; with or without your cooperation. You are expected to carry out the tasks assigned to you and conform to the directives of the CEO. God on the other hand does not need your input, ideas, or suggestions to ponder His next move. He already knows and points the direction with or without your cooperation. |
ah I see your point. However doesn't this completely remove free will? And what about the argument i have seen you use before (the great deceiver) how do we know who is guiding us? For the King of lies can be very, very tricky indeed. |
Our choice to follow and obey is what free will is all about. That has nothing to do with the CEO's determinism of company direction. We have no choice in the matter of God's plans for eternity. We trust in our knowledge of His omniscience and omnipotence that it is right and good even if we can't see ahead and understand why at the moment. There's a purpose in not receiving a detailed explanation in advance. That purpose is to demonstrate God's trustworthyness and faithfulness. If we knew all in advance, God would be entirely predictable. God has revealed limited information so that when He follows through we see His promises to be true. With that evidence in hand, we can now rely upon His promises to be trust and faith worthy AND we can trust that what we DON'T know, He already does...therefore we don't necessarily NEED to know all the answers. The one in control has the answers and that's good enough.
As for the great deceiver, we can see his works and they are evident. Broken promises, lies, dead ends, addictions, failed relationships, mistrust, stabbed backs, broken families, broken promises, broken dreams, etc.etc..
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | You asked, "So why is it not enough for your God simply for us to help eachother?". It's simple as I explained but let me word it differently. True love is ONLY available from God. You're attempting to sidestep and refusing to acknowledge the source of this love you want to express toward another person. When you "love" apart from the source of true love, you're actually substituting a counterfeit and defective form of love. |
Prove it. Thats my problem here, there is no way of knowing if this is true unless Yahweh waltzes down and says, "yeah, what he said".
IF, theoretically, Yahweh is the only source of true love and our love is untainted when returned to it then yes, very well it makes sense to love it. However I do not believe that, Yahweh is not all loving, look at the bible, you yourself say it, he will give no quarter, there can be no excuse. I could not love such a creature. I will grant you the premise if its base holds true, but I would not follow, it is not a kind, lovable creature, but spiny, irritable and jealous. Hording love. |
From the human perspective, the warden is hording freedom. "Just because we're guilty and got caught shouldn't mean the guards are just in lording captivity over us. Yeah, we chose to break that law, but heck I didn't really believe there was a witness or such a steep penalty. I figured a hand slap would suffice."
The thing is? We're guilty and theres only one penalty. The word is out on that, so we have a choice...like in Wash's PD exercise. Here's the drill:
For example, say you and I both run a red light and get caught. We are both guilty-caught red handed. Case closed.
1) I go to the governor, admit my guilt and ask for a pardon. He decides by his grace and mercy to grant me a pardon before my court date. (I do not know the Guv-en-a-tor in advance or have any previous connection). I am free, pardoned, forgiven.
2) I tell you how the governor granted my pardon and suggest you appeal to him as well. You tell me, "I don't believe in the governor".
3) So, you do not go to the governor. You have a court date coming up. You will face the judge and be subject to the laws and penalty. That was your choice. I told you about the governor. Turns out the program was available to everyone.
God's pardon not only annuls the past charges against you, but also grants you full immunity to future charges. If that immunity is abused, one can expect God's discipline, but the immunity is irrevocable nonetheless. Once you are saved and forgiven, that pardon is sealed for eternity against any or all future claims. You belong to God forever.
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | You drink water. You've got water and hold up a glass of it. You can offer water to all your friends and talk about how plentiful the water is at Hugga Bears place. Well, I'll agree it's alot like water and will do in a pinch. But once you've had pure Fiji water straight from the source, tap water looks yellow. Filtered water seems like it's missing that zing. All other water just doesn't measure up.
It's impure. It takes instead of gives selflessly. It's centered on self and not completely and utterly centered on others. There's always a string attached or a study to determine what the gain/benefit to cost/loss ratio values will amount to. Human love often has conditions that need to be met and when they're not then love is withheld or retracted. Humans often invoke, "I'll do this IF/WHEN you do that". Humans keep tabs and scores and hold grudges. |
You didnt answer my question, why send out love for it to be returned? An omnimax being has no need to discover who loves it, it does not need our minds to twist its love (or even risk tainting it), so why? it is not for our benefit as we can love others without turning to it. |
Need is not in play for God but it is US who are in need of His love. Because He IS love, the intelligent beings created in His image with emotions and sentient cognizance will "love like their creator loves" which by nature first loves the Creator and source of love. If love from God is seen as food or energy then our need for relationship is understood. The return is not to feed or energize God but rather is the appropriate demonstration of a closed circuit or cycle of love. If God's love (energy) flows out, is harvested-used up-spent-dispensed downhill, there is no cycle of intimate relationship but rather a powerline that terminates at it's end destination. Each power pole is looking downhill and only expects to receive enough to be spent as opposed to reciprocal cooperative familial intimacy. A computer network is a better illustration of proper love and relationship but isn't a perfect example. The family is an earthly example of this concept and as such marriage is used throughout scripture as an illustration of proper relationship between God and man.
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Now, take the preceding paragraph and your instinctive reaction will be to project these very same emotional reactions on God. You've already assumed He is vain and self-centered. You'll assume His love is conditional with strings attached with conditions that need to be met and He retracts His love when you fail because He keeps tabs and grudges making you pay eternally...right? You're not alone in projecting human thinking on God. However the assumptions are entirely misplaced. |
I did not assume such things, I said that were it true that it wanted us to worship it then it is vain, this s a true statement. Being self centred comes from vanity and as such is supported by the statement. So again, why does it demand our worship? Or, why does it demand our love? |
Many do make the assumption is why I mentioned it. IT doesn't demand worship or love. It's demands 1)acknowledgment and 2)obedience. 1 because "He IS" Creator and to deny His existence is rejection and in opposition to all plans and purposes for which He created the being to begin with. 2 because He knows all and owes no explanation for His plans and purposes although in His love He DOES explain many things. God is a relational being and as such creates relationships between all things, some sentient some not. Life and matter interact and have order and purpose that is mutually beneficial to eternity.
The result for one who acknowledges and obeys is relationship which in turn results in the natural response of love, worship, obedience, devotion etc. In other words, it's cause and effect as opposed to demand, force, and compel. Even 1 and 2 are not compelled. Free will grants the person freedom to choose NOT to participate. That granted desire has dire consequences carry clear warnings of danger and peril.
Many atheists cry, "Don't try to threaten me buster with your fear tactics!"... but if the warnings were not there? They'd be crying, "FOUL! FOUL! There was NO warning at all!"
| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | We CAN receive True Love and for the first time EXPRESS true love in the context that it was designed to be experienced...with our Creator! We receive God's love and respond by loving Him in return. Being filled with God's love, He then points and directs His love IN US towards other people. Remember when Jesus was asked ...what is the greatest commandment? Jesus replied, Love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul AND love your neighbor as yourself. Most people leave out the first part and then call the second part "the golden rule". The first part is the most important because without it, we CANNOT even begin to practice the second part.
Our worship of God is the act of returning His love in us back to Him. It is the cycle or circuit of true love. |
Again I do not support the bible but assuming its truth:
you have contradicted yourself again, you say our love is tainted yet now you say it forms true love, if it only forms true love when we love our creator then I can turn my argument on its head, why love anyone else? Surely we should just love Yahweh as it is beautiful and magnificent and is the only way of feeling true love? Loving someone else is idiocy, surely? Why do we need anyone else, surely we should all just sit down somewhere, close our eyes and project all our love upwards in the hopes that it would smack into him. |
Humans possess and express impure love by nature. It's ultimately self centered benefit/gain. We are able to RECEIVE God's pure love first by being spiritually reborn. Then and only then are we spiritually alive to communicate and relate with God, returning His love. God's love is now manifested within us and HIS LOVE for mankind WITHIN US is now directed appropriately towards others unconditionally and without respect to personal benefit/gain. Thus, Jesus said the great commandment is to love God first with everything THEN love your neighbor....as in love your neighbor with God's love that is now within you. That's also WHY & HOW Jesus says "Love your enemy, bless those that curse you, turn the other cheek"...etc. That can ONLY be done with God's love. NOT the tainted self serving love of fallen man.
Man doesn't love his enemy, he curses back at those who curse, and he strikes back when struck. That's the eye-for-an-eye credo. |
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