Going on the offensive

ManicParroT · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Going on the offensive

OK. I live in the small city of Pietermaritzburg, South Africa. Just to give people background, South Africa is quite a conservative, overwhelmingly Christian country, and Pietermaritzburg is a microcosm of this. Lots of churches, lots of Christians. Schools are almost all Christian (including state schools - the separation of church and state principle isn't deeply entrenched in our Constitution).

Anyways, recently Mr. Dawkins published his latest book. Someone reviewed it in the local paper. The result? An enormous hullabaloo. The local paper has been filled with letters from theists and atheists. Mostly theists, but (I think due to the local university) there have been some strong atheist arguments. I'm proud to say that I contributed to the debate, mostly by rebutting specific challenges to evolution (the DNA information content argument is one).

Anyway, the paper has done a wrap on the debate, and declared it effectively closed. However, there's no doubt that it's stirred things up.

I was discussing this with my friend (we're both bored from being on holiday) and we've resolved to go and post flyers at the local evangelical Christian church. To be precise, we want to use the Kissing Hank's Ass pamphlet, available here:

http://www.jhuger.com/pamphlets/khb.pdf

If that fails, we'll go and hand them out in front of a Christian book store, or some such.

I know some people disapprove of going out and challenging others religions. Personally, I think it's quite a good idea - we need to win back some public space from religious groups. I don't expect converts from this - however, given the way Christians are constantly broadcasting their religion, I think it's important to stand up and challenge them openly. The discourse in this country is dominated by Christians to an alarming degree, and it's important to resist this.

Anyway, I'm just posting this to let you guys know, and get some help. Specifically, we're looking for printer friendly materiel that can be used as pamphlets or whatever. The Kissing Hank's Ass pamphlet is good, but a broader range might be handy.

Let me know what you guys think! Input and suggestions are welcome.

Moloth · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:50 am Post subject:

Excellent stuff, Manic. You're absolutely right to stand up and openly question the Christian majority... i just hope you'll be safe to do so.
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CET · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:

I'm with Moloth, WATCH YOUR ASS over there.

The pamphlets aren't a bad idea, but you're marketing to the wrong crowd. People in churches and christian bookstores will completely miss the point of "Kissing Hank's Ass". The more committed someone is to their belief, the more they will turn a blind eye to any evidence you present them with. You could give them the greatest treatise ever written on the BS of literal religion, but the committed will make up any BS excuse they can grasp at. Then they'll tell you that you're stupid and /or have been mislead, either by atheists like Dawkins, Satan, or both.

What you need is a neutral and uncommitted crowd if you want to actually gain any ground. Try regular bookstores, coffee shops, etc.

If you're just looking for a fight that won't do anything except raise local tensions and steel the christian resolve, then definitely go to churches and christian bookstores.
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FlatEarth1024 · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject:

Philosophos · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject:

Two other sources for pamphlets are The Freedom From Religion Foundation's nontracts, and for something more humorous, you can try Normal Bob Smith's stuff.
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Nimitz · Guest Local time: 6:02 AM

Stand tall Parrot. Watching your ass is good advice anywhere on planet Earth.

Mr_C · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject:

I'll be praying for you, Parrot. Good luck and God Speed.
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ManicParroT · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject:

Initial Contact:

OK, we went to the local church (New Covenant Fellowship). I dimly recall going there for a month maybe when I was about 8 for Sunday School, and as far as I remember they had a small hall and a couple of seminar style rooms. Went to them now, and they're massive. An enormous building, between 500 and 600 people singing and dancing about glory to the Lord, the whole shebang.

The plan was fairly fuzzy. We had some of the Kissing Hank's Ass pamphlets, and we had an initial idea of pamphleting the cars and seeing if we could find anyone to discuss atheism with.

Well, the security guards turfing us out pretty much cancelled that. They saw we had pamphlets and went GTFO.

We've made a plan to see the pastor tomorrow (Monday) and discuss things with him. I'm coming to the conclusion that this entire gig is far more difficult and a lot more dangerous than I initially thought.

My initial thought was hey, we go there, we hand out pamphlets and have a chat with people.

Then I got there and saw the church full of people (500+) almost frothing at the mouth with religious fervour. I saw the one or two dubious bouncer types at the back, pacing back and forth and looking intimidating. I saw the security guards with walky talkies.

The people on this thread who were worried were absolutely right. This is dangerous.

Be that as it may, we're not going to stop. What I've seen has convinced me that we need to engage these people. We DO also need to talk to the uncommited and the man on the street. (thanks for the suggestion CET) The fact is, this Evangelical Church has grown like a mushroom. Every year NCF come onto our campus and convert people and we've been sitting back and letting them do it.

We're going to go and talk to the pastor and one of the elders tomorrow (Monday). We think if we keep it nonconfrontational we may be able to lure them into a debate. We're hoping to talk him into letting us discuss things with some of their Cell groups (that's what they call the youth groups for 18 - 30 yr olds). They meet in much smaller groups, which is better than trying to talk to 500 people at once.
No doubt he'll expect them to crush us easily, so that's our first edge. The other advantage is that he'll be wanting to convert us, which could morph into a suggestion that we go to Cell group or whatever. We seriously considered just visiting Cell group under false pretences and then whipping out the atheism, but I felt that would be a bad idea.

If this fails horribly, which it quite easily could, we're going to move to the local mall and start handing out the pamphlets and discussing things with people there. Either way, by this time tomorrow we're determined to have talked to a significant number of people about atheism.

Analyzing things, I can see I've hopelessly underestimated the challenges that atheists face in actually talking to people about religion and challenging their world views. Starting at the lunatic fringe of Christianity is probably not going to win converts, but I think it's a good starting point, simply because if I can survive that, I can survive anything. I'll be testing my approach and arguments in the crucible of the local church, so to speak. I've talked to 'normal' Christians before, and I tend to have good results, so stepping it up and 'bearding the lion in his den', so to speak, seems to be the next step.

sjc · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

What does a church need with security guards?
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Ophis · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject:

wrekk · Intern Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 49 Local time: 3:02 PM

I am LMAO at this thread!!! LOL

Dude (ManicParrot)... much props. I like your courage. It's something, I have thought about doing too. But being that there's the possibility that I'll get stomped like a Narc at a biker rally by some zealots Christian "Patriots".... I have decided not to. Keep us posted, this was very interesting and inspirational reading.
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ManicParroT · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

SvZurich · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject:

Good luck, Manic. Be safe and know that you have done a great job.
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Uncertainty · Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject:

Those huge expensive churches piss me off. I wish Jesus was real so he could slap around the people who decided they should waste their money making them.

Terrordar · Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:05 am Post subject:

Well, look on the bridght side, at least your not in a Muslim country.
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