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Ivan_Ivanov
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The FARC are commies who use counter-economics. |
Ah, so there you go, they can be my favorite socialists.
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | I wouldn't call myself a socialist, but recently, I have developed a more socialist slant to my politics. |
Why?
| Quote: | | I would have to say my favorite would be a tie between Noam Chomsky and Bakunin. |
I used to express Chomsky's concern about asymmetric information created by corporations, but then I realized that the government is the biggest creator of asymmetric information.
Then again, I am arguing against an anarchist. Do you believe you follow anarchist-syndicalism or another form of socialist anarchy? What do you agree about with Chomsky and Bakunin? |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | I wouldn't call myself a socialist, but recently, I have developed a more socialist slant to my politics.
I would have to say my favorite would be a tie between Noam Chomsky and Bakunin. |
Two good picks in my opinion. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Now you have to express your opinions to further this conversation. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | .Who I admire should be irrelevant to the question, |
You asked a very interesting question. I am trying to engage in conversation by asking a socialist who he believes in.
| Quote: | | but I'll give it some thought and maybe get back to you. Who I admire is not entirely based on their ideas, a lot of it is based on action. For example, I may respect Krotopkin, but I admire Mahkno. |
Express their ideas (I cannot debate against dead people). |
Okay, well, then I'll assume you're looking for socialists I admire, so I'll stick to that, even though there are non-socialists like Thomas Jefferson who I really admire. I'll break it down into two categories, those I admire primarily for their ideas and those I admire primarily for their actions.
Ideas:
I'll steal redraiderdude's first two...
Chomsky
Bakunin
I think Chomsky is very strong when it comes to analyzing the current system and very weak when it comes to offering prescriptions.
Marx
I actually disagree with a LOT of what Marx wrote and I'm definitely not a Marxist but he was brilliant and did offer some insightful analysis of capitalism and history, even if I disagree with large parts of the analysis
Proudhon
Sorel
DeLeon
Action:
Fred Hampton
Ho Chi Minh
Fidel Castro
Che Guevara
Big Bill Haywood
Mother Jones
Eugene V. Debs
Nestor Makhno
Buenaventura Durruti
Leopold Trepper
Nikita Khruschev
Josip "Tito" Broz
I should note that this list is not even close to being exhaustive and that "admiration" does not imply a lack of criticism. Three good examples of the latter are Khruschev, Castro and Makhno. Khruschev's actions in Hungary are inexcusable, Castro's role in the Ochoa affair disgusting, and while Makhno may not have been an anti-Semite himself, there were definitely loud anti-Semites in the ranks of his organization. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Okay, well, then I'll assume you're looking for socialists I admire, |
I am asking you to express their ideas. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Okay, well, then I'll assume you're looking for socialists I admire, |
I am asking you to express their ideas. |
I hate to do this but I'm gonna refer you to wikipedia. I really don't have time to try to summarize the ideas of Bakunin, Chomsky, Marx, Sorel, Proudhon, and DeLeon. That's a pretty Herculean task to ask of me, even if you were asking me to provide a synopsis of the ideas of just one of them. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | even if you were asking me to provide a synopsis of the ideas of just one of them. |
Provide something beside excuses. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | even if you were asking me to provide a synopsis of the ideas of just one of them. |
Provide something beside excuses. |
Wow. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Please express your socialistic ideas. |
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 1152
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | I think Chomsky is very strong when it comes to analyzing the current system and very weak when it comes to offering prescriptions. |
I agree completely. I think most of his ideas work more effectively as an eye-opener to the kind of people that currently run our country rather than a set of ideas to form a government with.
To GRS: Do you think that a fully socialistic system is even economically feasible? Presently, I'm leaning more along the lines of the social democracy one could associate with Nader, Kucinich, Gravel, etc.
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redraiderdude187
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bump for GRS.
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Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | Bump for GRS. |
Just PM him.
I will discuss Yugoslavia, ESOP's, and the Mondregon experiment. I will not discuss names without an expression of an idea. |
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 1152
Local time: 8:23 AM
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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What the fuck are you talking about?
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Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Okay, well, then I'll assume you're looking for socialists I admire, so I'll stick to that, even though there are non-socialists like Thomas Jefferson who I really admire. I'll break it down into two categories, those I admire primarily for their ideas and those I admire primarily for their actions.
Ideas:
I'll steal redraiderdude's first two...
Chomsky
Bakunin
I think Chomsky is very strong when it comes to analyzing the current system and very weak when it comes to offering prescriptions.
Marx
I actually disagree with a LOT of what Marx wrote and I'm definitely not a Marxist but he was brilliant and did offer some insightful analysis of capitalism and history, even if I disagree with large parts of the analysis
Proudhon
Sorel
DeLeon
Action:
Fred Hampton
Ho Chi Minh
Fidel Castro
Che Guevara
Big Bill Haywood
Mother Jones
Eugene V. Debs
Nestor Makhno
Buenaventura Durruti
Leopold Trepper
Nikita Khruschev
Josip "Tito" Broz
I should note that this list is not even close to being exhaustive and that "admiration" does not imply a lack of criticism. Three good examples of the latter are Khruschev, Castro and Makhno. Khruschev's actions in Hungary are inexcusable, Castro's role in the Ochoa affair disgusting, and while Makhno may not have been an anti-Semite himself, there were definitely loud anti-Semites in the ranks of his organization. |
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