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_Frost
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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very good point, Philosophos
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Ecclesiastes 7:23-25
All this I have tested by wisdom; I said, "I will be wise," but it was far from me. That which is, is far off, and deep, very deep; who can find it out? I turned my mind to know and to search out and to seek wisdom and the sum of things, and to know that wickedness is folly and that foolishness is madness. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
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Raggle Fraggle
Smells Chiiiicken
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 1015
Local time: 6:49 AM
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
So you're saying that complete freedom is an illusion? Then why do you say that god gave us free will to test us?
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Could you repeat that? I think I had something crazy in my ear. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
So you're saying that complete freedom is an illusion? Then why do you say that god gave us free will to test us? |
He's not testing anyone. Free will to choose is well within bounds of the illusion of utter freedom. The world is not in chaos, no? Neither plant, nor animal, nor man. All are in semblance of order just as the universe. The effect of fallen man and cursed earth is also apparent as is the dominion that was lost to the adversary at Eden. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
So you're saying that complete freedom is an illusion? Then why do you say that god gave us free will to test us? |
He's not testing anyone. Free will to choose is well within bounds of the illusion of utter freedom. The world is not in chaos, no? Neither plant, nor animal, nor man. All are in semblance of order just as the universe. The effect of fallen man and cursed earth is also apparent as is the dominion that was lost to the adversary at Eden. |
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Raggle Fraggle
Smells Chiiiicken
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 1015
Local time: 6:49 AM
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
So you're saying that complete freedom is an illusion? Then why do you say that god gave us free will to test us? |
He's not testing anyone. Free will to choose is well within bounds of the illusion of utter freedom. The world is not in chaos, no? Neither plant, nor animal, nor man. All are in semblance of order just as the universe. The effect of fallen man and cursed earth is also apparent as is the dominion that was lost to the adversary at Eden. |
Wait wait wait. This is not my batman glass. Just kidding.
You've said (and correct me if I'm wrong) that god gave us free will to see what would happen if we were given the choice between him and disobedience.
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Could you repeat that? I think I had something crazy in my ear. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | That natural moral law exists is evidence of God's governance of man by moral law. Just as the universe is under His control by laws of nature, so too is all life under basic societal moral laws. Order exists due to constraint and purpose. The illusion of complete freedom exists only to give man the necessary room for free agency within the limited boundaries of His greater plans and purpose. Logical man, in the complete freedom of an invisible God, has unconstrained will to reason God away regardless of his inherited knowledge of good and evil. |
So you're saying that complete freedom is an illusion? Then why do you say that god gave us free will to test us? |
He's not testing anyone. Free will to choose is well within bounds of the illusion of utter freedom. The world is not in chaos, no? Neither plant, nor animal, nor man. All are in semblance of order just as the universe. The effect of fallen man and cursed earth is also apparent as is the dominion that was lost to the adversary at Eden. |
Wait wait wait. This is not my batman glass. Just kidding.
You've said (and correct me if I'm wrong) that god gave us free will to see what would happen if we were given the choice between him and disobedience. |
He's not experimenting to "see what happens". God has created man to spend eternity with Him. Those who freely choose Him will enter the Kingdom. In order for a genuine choice to made, there had to exist two choices and the illusion of no consequence. |
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Raggle Fraggle
Smells Chiiiicken
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 1015
Local time: 6:49 AM
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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It's not a real choice. Between "worship me" or "go to hell", everyone would choose him.
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Could you repeat that? I think I had something crazy in my ear. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | It's not a real choice. Between "worship me" or "go to hell", everyone would choose him. |
But they don't. Thus the exercise of choice is obvious. Watch Candid Camera; moral dilemma is a nasty affair. |
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Paranoia21
Weird Fish
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 1216
Local time: 4:49 AM
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | It's not a real choice. Between "worship me" or "go to hell", everyone would choose him. |
But they don't. Thus the exercise of choice is obvious. Watch Candid Camera; moral dilemma is a nasty affair. |
You wonder why people don't believe? If given a choice, burn or believe, of course the majority would instantly choose belief, but there are some who choose to think a bit deeper, and soon realize that there is no evidence supporting the existence of a divine being, therefore making that choice completely irrelevant.
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VERITAS OMNIA VINCIT
Keep YOUR religion in YOUR churches and YOUR homes and out of OUR government. |
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Missionary
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Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Paranoia21 wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | It's not a real choice. Between "worship me" or "go to hell", everyone would choose him. |
But they don't. Thus the exercise of choice is obvious. Watch Candid Camera; moral dilemma is a nasty affair. |
You wonder why people don't believe? If given a choice, burn or believe, of course the majority would instantly choose belief, but there are some who choose to think a bit deeper, and soon realize that there is no evidence supporting the existence of a divine being, therefore making that choice completely irrelevant. |
Well my friend, you just nailed it. You are exhibit "A".  |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:49 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | It's not a real choice. Between "worship me" or "go to hell", everyone would choose him. |
funny you say this, I have ask this before the "if proven what?" question, and althought I dont believe most answers it was curious to see the "I dont care even if" answer
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"Love Life" |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:49 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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let me ask the question? does religion do any justice to the human race, with our moral "code" or do you believe that Atheist would naturally carry a better moral stance, code?
been thinking a lot about this this week, it seems Atheist keep saying, there is no need for religion to have good morals, and I am not a person that believes Atheism = bad morals. But there are many samples that it shows clearly.
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"Love Life" |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23063
Local time: 5:49 AM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | let me ask the question? does religion do any justice to the human race, with our moral "code" or do you believe that Atheist would naturally carry a better moral stance, code?
been thinking a lot about this this week, it seems Atheist keep saying, there is no need for religion to have good morals, and I am not a person that believes Atheism = bad morals. But there are many samples that it shows clearly. |
What is better...
do good because if you do, you will be rewarded and if you do bad, you'll be punished.
OR
do good simply because its the right, moral thing to do.
and... as far as morality and religion goes.. yeah...
how many wars, jihads, inquisitions, witchhunts, genocides and etc have been done in the name of religion? of atheism?
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 8:49 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: |
What is better...
do good because if you do, you will be rewarded and if you do bad, you'll be punished.
OR
do good simply because its the right, moral thing to do.
and... as far as morality and religion goes.. yeah...
how many wars, jihads, inquisitions, witchhunts, genocides and etc have been done in the name of religion? of atheism? |
With a world population of 6.6 billion moral free agents, who is authorized to declare what is moral or not? |
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