Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 3802 Local time: 12:26 PM Location: Cin City, OH!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:
Oh no, now I can't resist the urge to reply.
Missionary wrote:
Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies. Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23). Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god, but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It's an okay story, read as mythology, but for you to treat it as inspired by your all-knowing hoodoo sky fairy and worthy of serious consideration is pretty pathetic.
Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1916 Local time: 7:26 PM Location: Las Vegas
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject:
Eyedunno wrote:
Oh no, now I can't resist the urge to reply.
Missionary wrote:
Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies. Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23). Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god, but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It's an okay story, read as mythology, but for you to treat it as inspired by your all-knowing hoodoo sky fairy and worthy of serious consideration is pretty pathetic.
QFT and unless you show me, Missionary, a verse in Genesis that specifically says that death is the penalty for sin then you just lied to us. _________________ "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies.
That was satan's argument:
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Quote:
Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23).
They always had the option to eat from the Tree of Life as God never forbade them from it. But once they had sinned by disobedience and acquired the knowledge of good and evil (moral awareness), God did not want them to remain in that state eternally. As a result they were separated from God (spiritual death) and the Tree of Life (physical death) leaving them spiritually dead and ultimately introduced physical death to and in mankind. The Tree of Life is reintroduced (along with the River of Life) in Revelation 22.
Outside of the garden God is acting in mercy towards man to allow time for repentance, atonement, forgiveness (spiritual rebirth) before fulfilling His initial warning and bringing about physical death. God retains right and entitlement however to carry out judgment by physical death at His will and has done so.
Quote:
Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god,
Not at all, "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Adam is not "a kind of god" but has knowledge of good and evil just as God has knowledge of good and evil. The "sin" was the act of disobedience. The knowledge of good and evil was moral awareness. Separation from God (spiritual death) is the result of sin and man remains in that condition unless ha is spiritually reborn.
Quote:
but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It doesn't imply that at all. It said, "...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." God simply did not want man to remain in this condition of sin forever. Therefore God separated them from the Tree of Life which left them to a physical death outside of Eden. He then atoned for the sin Himself by a substitute sacrifice and clothed them with the skin.
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8642 Local time: 2:26 AM Location: Londonistan
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:18 am Post subject:
The bible says exactly what the reader wants it to say.
Read the mental gymnastic in the last post.
Another Christian would contrive a completely different meaning to those verses.
Ask 10 Christians to explain a verse, any verse, and there will be 10 different interpretations. _________________ “The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.” - Ayn Rand
Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies. Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23). Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god, but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It's an okay story, read as mythology, but for you to treat it as inspired by your all-knowing hoodoo sky fairy and worthy of serious consideration is pretty pathetic.
QFT and unless you show me, Missionary, a verse in Genesis that specifically says that death is the penalty for sin then you just lied to us.
Gen 2:17 God gives 1) commandment and 2) punishment for disobedience, "..the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, 1) thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof 2) thou shalt surely die."
Gen 3:17 God pronounces Adam guilty of disobedience "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee"
Gen 3:19 God pronounces death "...till thou return unto the ground; [snip] and unto dust shalt thou return."
joshuas3521 Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Joined: 19 Dec 2007 Posts: 2236 Local time: 9:26 PM Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:41 am Post subject:
Missionary wrote:
pr126 wrote:
The bible says exactly what the reader wants it to say.
Read the mental gymnastic in the last post.
Another Christian would contrive a completely different meaning to those verses.
Ask 10 Christians to explain a verse, any verse, and there will be 10 different interpretations.
Apart from the Holy Spirit, that's true...after all, it's God's Word. The best twister of scripture has been satan.
_________________ "What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan
"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams
Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 3909 Local time: 7:26 PM Location: USA
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:51 am Post subject:
Missionary wrote:
You'll be left with no doubt, your life will be transformed in an instant, and nobody on an atheist forum will believe you. That's exactly what it's like.
So why do you suppose we don't believe you? Why do you suppose this god gave you this experience but not most of the rest of the world... even Mother Teresa doubted her god's existence? Why do you refuse to tell how this god communicated this knowledge to you?
Quote:
I don't know man. There were lots of people watching Noah build that boat. I imagine it was alot like this forum. Laughing, mocking, flinging poo.
So you do believe there was an actual flood that destroyed all terrestrial organisms, save the ones on Noah's ark, and this event happened within the last ten-thousand-years? _________________ Atheism... Evolving beyond superstition
Proud to support seti@home
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 3802 Local time: 12:26 PM Location: Cin City, OH!
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:39 am Post subject:
Missionary wrote:
Eyedunno wrote:
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies.
That was satan's argument:
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
1) Not Satan. It's a serpent, it's never referred to as anything but a serpent, and the Kipling-esque condemnation by God further reinforces the fact that it's a snake.
2) The whole concept of Satan as we know it is a Christian invention. The Satan in Job is one of the sons of God (often thought of as an angel to Christians who get antsy about competition with their Number One Son, even if the original Hebrew says sons of God), and it's clear that he's acting in accord with God and God's plans, even if he doubts Job's virtue. Satan means "accuser" or "adversary" in the original Hebrew, and there's no hint that it's a name, much less a demon's name - it's more likely closer to a title or manner of distinguishing this particular son.
3) The serpent was right - "Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22).
Missionary wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23).
They always had the option to eat from the Tree of Life as God never forbade them from it. But once they had sinned by disobedience and acquired the knowledge of good and evil (moral awareness), God did not want them to remain in that state eternally. As a result they were separated from God (spiritual death) and the Tree of Life (physical death) leaving them spiritually dead and ultimately introduced physical death to and in mankind. The Tree of Life is reintroduced (along with the River of Life) in Revelation 22.
This requires a skewed interpretation of Genesis 3:22-23.
Missionary wrote:
Outside of the garden God is acting in mercy towards man to allow time for repentance, atonement, forgiveness (spiritual rebirth) before fulfilling His initial warning and bringing about physical death.
At least 800 years worth! Furthermore, this is never stated; you're just making this up to shoehorn the text into your concept of God.
Missionary wrote:
God retains right and entitlement however to carry out judgment by physical death at His will and has done so.
Ditto Chuck Norris, and he doesn't wait 800 years.
Missionary wrote:
Quote:
Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god,
Not at all, "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Adam is not "a kind of god" but has knowledge of good and evil just as God has knowledge of good and evil. The "sin" was the act of disobedience. The knowledge of good and evil was moral awareness. Separation from God (spiritual death) is the result of sin and man remains in that condition unless ha is spiritually reborn.
It boggles the mind that you could read this and not get anxiety on God's part out of the text. I can't wait to hear you squirm around Genesis 11. "And the Lord said, ‘Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.'"
Furthermore, there's the other paradox that without the knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam have known that disobedience was a problem? It seems God set him up for failure, and this is even more the case with the modern Christian concept of the Omnimax god.
Missionary wrote:
Quote:
but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It doesn't imply that at all. It said, "...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." God simply did not want man to remain in this condition of sin forever. Therefore God separated them from the Tree of Life which left them to a physical death outside of Eden. He then atoned for the sin Himself by a substitute sacrifice and clothed them with the skin.
You've again stuffed your external context into it. Nobody just reading the text would ever come to that conclusion, or at least not without being convinced beforehand that it's divinely inspired.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 1265 Local time: 9:26 PM Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:05 am Post subject:
Those who stand on the floor screaming for "intelligent design" actually call it "alternative science". These idiots could not tell the difference between science and bell peppers, yet we allow them to give their opinion on things they have no knowledge.
Allowing religion to dictate what science is is like having a bricklayer dictate how to do heart surgery. _________________ Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb
Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1916 Local time: 7:26 PM Location: Las Vegas
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:50 am Post subject:
Missionary wrote:
Raskolnikov wrote:
Eyedunno wrote:
Oh no, now I can't resist the urge to reply.
Missionary wrote:
Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And yet they didn't die "that very day" in the story - heck, he lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). This leaves you to talk about nonsense like "spiritual death" to try and save this story from its own inconsistencies. Furthermore, the reason God kicked Adam out of the garden was not a direct consequence of Adam eating from the tree. God saw that Adam was like the gods in his knowledge of good and evil, and was afraid that as a consequence of this new knowledge, Adam might also eat of the Tree of Life, granting him immortality (Genesis 3:22-23). Not only is this saying that man could become a kind of god, but it also implies that God never wanted Adam to live forever in the first place, which weakens the impact of the "you shall surely die" threat. Not only was it a bluff, but God had intended for them to die without eating from the tree.
It's an okay story, read as mythology, but for you to treat it as inspired by your all-knowing hoodoo sky fairy and worthy of serious consideration is pretty pathetic.
QFT and unless you show me, Missionary, a verse in Genesis that specifically says that death is the penalty for sin then you just lied to us.
Gen 2:17 God gives 1) commandment and 2) punishment for disobedience, "..the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, 1) thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof 2) thou shalt surely die."
Gen 3:17 God pronounces Adam guilty of disobedience "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee"
Gen 3:19 God pronounces death "...till thou return unto the ground; [snip] and unto dust shalt thou return."
I still don't see it say death is the punishment for sin. Adam didn't die the day he disobeyed god like the Bible says. _________________ "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown
You'll be left with no doubt, your life will be transformed in an instant, and nobody on an atheist forum will believe you. That's exactly what it's like.
So why do you suppose we don't believe you? Why do you suppose this god gave you this experience but not most of the rest of the world... even Mother Teresa doubted her god's existence? Why do you refuse to tell how this god communicated this knowledge to you?
It's beyond your willingness...you're not able to believe me. I'm only able to provide personal testimony of that which I've experienced for the purpose of confirming your own personal experience. How, when, why for you I can't answer as that's God's business and yours. If you're interested as to how God speaks to people it varies and the accounts are littered through the Bible. As I've said before, my personal experience is most closely related to Paul's. Also, you seem to be under the impression, as most, that I would want to convince or persuade you of something. I have no intention of such.
Quote:
I don't know man. There were lots of people watching Noah build that boat. I imagine it was alot like this forum. Laughing, mocking, flinging poo.
So you do believe there was an actual flood that destroyed all terrestrial organisms, save the ones on Noah's ark, and this event happened within the last ten-thousand-years?[/quote]
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23071 Local time: 9:26 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject:
“Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself”
- Miguel de Unamuno
“Any belief worth having must survive doubt”
- Miguel de Unamuno
“Life is doubt, And faith without doubt is nothing but death”
- Miguel de Unamuno
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
-Philip K. Dick _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
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