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Philosophos
Do it
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | Yes for sure.........in relation to my original post........can you show me it? |
I've already done so twice.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Actually, you fit quite nicely within the ignoramus crowd on this board. |
And so you're inviting him to join you? |
No, I believe in individual ownership. |
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Wickedtruth
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Wickedtruth wrote: | | Yes for sure.........in relation to my original post........can you show me it? |
I've already done so twice. |
I will stop posting here. Sorry. |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9267
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Actually, you fit quite nicely within the ignoramus crowd on this board. |
And so you're inviting him to join you? |
Ahh alright...pretty harsh..I will stop posting at these forums. |
That was aimed at him, not you.
But do as you please.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
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Wickedtruth
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: |
But do as you please. |
Last thing I want to do is make a fool of myself. If old members are making fun of me, I will leave. |
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Philosophos
Do it
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Posts: 9267
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | Last thing I want to do is make a fool of myself. If old members are making fun of me, I will leave. |
It's the internet. Not serious business.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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Wickedtruth
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Wickedtruth wrote: | | Last thing I want to do is make a fool of myself. If old members are making fun of me, I will leave. |
It's the internet. Not serious business. |
I'm not a mind reader mate, if you don't like me, you have to be honest. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | Last thing I want to do is make a fool of myself. |
It's called humility. Philosophos should learn some.
| Quote: | | If old members are making fun of me, I will leave. |
Quite your fucking bitching. Don't ever tell me your grandparents never made fun of you during your birthday parade.
Welcome to the party! |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9267
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Location: Where Scum Are
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | I'm not a mind reader mate, if you don't like me, you have to be honest. |
I don't even know you. How could I not like you?
I'm not a mind reader either. I feel I've responded to your basic concerns about your arguments. What are you concerned about?
And although Gettin' In Tune has a few posts under his belt, I wouldn't lend him too much credence. You can always hit the ignore button at the top of one of his posts, and you won't have to see them.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
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Wickedtruth
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Got me there. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Wickedtruth wrote: | | I'm not a mind reader mate, if you don't like me, you have to be honest. |
I don't even know you. How could I not like you?
I'm not a mind reader either. I feel I've responded to your basic concerns about your arguments. What are you concerned about?
And although Gettin' In Tune has a few posts under his belt, I wouldn't lend him too much credence. You can always hit the ignore button at the top of one of his posts, and you won't have to see them. |
Excellent Advice, except for ignoring me. We give you freedom of choice.
Regardless of Philo's accusation's, I think it is your right to choose.
(p.s. the ignore button sucks ass. It only works when you are logged in.) |
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Raggle Fraggle
Smells Chiiiicken
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 757
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (I don't want to read through so many pages), but I always think of the book of Leviticus for Christians. That's where one of the verses about homosexuality is that Christians love to recite. But, near it is the kosher food laws and all the other silly laws that Christians don't follow. If humans can't decide morality for ourselves, how do we know how silly those laws are? |
If morality is relative, how could a line be drawn between self-desire and sociopathy if ones desires and pleasures are derived from antisocial behavior? |
The people that aren't antisocial point it out and psychiatrists can help correct the problem.
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Could you repeat that? I think I had something crazy in my ear.
Fuck (for the cuss word rating) |
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Wickedtruth
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Oh wow...my drunk posts for the loss. LOL....it will happen again >=) |
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_Frost
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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forgive me for skipping a few pages.
concerning the first post, I find a problem with this question (and what Christians generally assert). To say that without God there is no morality does not necessarily mean that all is immoral. So to say that without God we would all be terrible, terrible people does not follow. I bought a bookshelf a few days ago. Is that moral or immoral? No. And in a discussion like this, it can be very easy to slip into confusion over "morality" and "things that are moral." Even though objective morality has its philosophical problems, without God (that is, a proposition of objective morals), "morality" becomes fuzzy, and we might as well find a new word for it because of the association of the word with that objectivity.
I think the Christian message posits morality as the way to the life that was meant to be. It's also a path toward godliness. People continuously bring up the moral/heaven immoral/hell issue, but I think it is beginning to taint what is really going on. Morality is fulfillment, it is freeing oneself from evil and disorder. I'm sure this is up for debate, but that has been the impression I have gained.
An interesting note on the passage of Jesus' temptation in the desert. I've never taken Satan very seriously (and I'm beginning to debate the usage of his persona in the NT), and this passage sounds more like an illustration than anything. Remember-- the Jews were expecting a military Messiah. By denying rule over the nations, Jesus declares that he is not there for war or power That is, his ministry is not meant to be military in nature. That is the implication of this feature of the temptation passage (I saw somebody mention this, so I thought I would bring this to the table).
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Ecclesiastes 7:23-25
All this I have tested by wisdom; I said, "I will be wise," but it was far from me. That which is, is far off, and deep, very deep; who can find it out? I turned my mind to know and to search out and to seek wisdom and the sum of things, and to know that wickedness is folly and that foolishness is madness. |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| _Frost wrote: | | Even though objective morality has its philosophical problems, without God (that is, a proposition of objective morals)... |
Be careful, Frost.
While the terminology of ethics is far from standardized, I would wager to say that most ethicists would consider things like divine command theory to be subjective, not objective.
Why? Objective in ethics means that the "rightness" or "wrongness" of something stems from that something itself - that is, the "object" of discussion.
Subjective in ethics means that the "rightness" or "wrongness" of something stems from what is observing that object, or the "subject" of the matter.
With this under your belt, it's quite clear that divine command theory is a subjective theory. Why? Because a "right" act, for instance, is right because some other entity (God) said it is. It's not that it's right or wrong in and of itself.
Theists at this point may attempt to evoke God's creator status in saying that he can "make it bad". This only pushes back the question, however. For suppose a creator-god can make something objectively "bad" (and this is quite a supposition). Well, why is it that thing objectively bad, then? Because a person (God) made it that way. So divine command theory is still, at its base, subjective.
Most theists don't like their theory being categorized as "subjective" (because they tend to be more concerned with rhetoric than with facts) and so will fight this. But that doesn't negate the matter. Divine command theory is a subjective ethical theory through and through. Period.
Subjectivity is, of course, not "bad". For how can one judge what's "bad" without an ethical theory to compare it against in the first place? Of course, many theists do think that "subjectivity" in ethics is bad on aesthetic grounds, although they probably won't admit it. After all, this is the only other theory in which they have grounds to say something's "bad" in the first place. But why should a sound philosophical theory necessarily be pleasing?
Calling divine command theory "subjective" is by no means an argument against it. But nor should it be an argument against any other ethical theory, either. It's this second point that many theists either ignore or don't understand.
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