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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 6:59 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: |
BATM,
I can truly see how it would seem that way since I also now people that have done as described, first of all, I did not become an Atheist at that time, I have mentioned before that I was an Atheist prior to converting, wether or not you define it or give the title intelectual atheist or not that is up to you, never have put my beliefs in direct correlation with me intelectual capacity. I turned my back on the Church and God for many reasons, not for being down on luck as you describe (wont go into details as its a sure door opener for the "intelectual Atheist" to say I am vain and all the rest of their "inteligent" comments) at any rate, I was doing very well and simply did not like at all many attitudes and things I saw going on in church. therefore I turned my back on them and God. Now mind you I have never said I received punishment from God for turning my back, he simply let me go on my way (free will) and let me depend and live solely on my provision as I did before coming to God. So I simply went back to my old life style.
please let me know if this clears things up, I do answer at times quickly and my writing skills are not the best, as I am trying to think, translate and write quickly . |
What I meant by intellectual atheist is people like most of the atheists on this board that have come to it over years of thought, have researched the religions, philosophies, & science, and have slowly come to the position that they have no evidence of gods and no belief. I seperate that from the typical rebellious teenager type calling himself an atheist because he's piss off his parents, teachers, god (never catching the irony of being mad at something you're not supposed to believe exists), or any other authority figure, listening to emo or goth music and wearing black, etc. I'm sure everyone has known a few of these, there's been some on this board before.
So you had a problem with the people in your church and broke away from that? I wouldn't call that turning your back on God. Did you still believe even if you weren't going to church or tithing? I know it's not standard scripture and considered heritical by many denominations, but what's your opinion on the bit in the Gospel of Thomas(I think?) about Jesus saying something like the religion isn't about the stone churches or whatever, it's in everything? Isn't faith supposed to be more than going to church and paying money?
Speaking of which, tithing seems a little...superficial to be treated like an edict from Jesus/God. Doesn't the fact that this religion was set up to be a money making venture, to be able to build these big extravegant churches & cathedrals, all the riches of the Vatican, seem a little...off to you, a bit self-serving, and maybe more human inspired than divinely inspired? Sure, some goes to charitible uses, but a lot just supports the church establishment. Doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical considering Christianity's focus on shedding material possessions...only to be told to give it to the church? Wouldn't it be just as good to support good non-profit charitable organizations like American Cancer Society, United Way, LiveStrong, smaller local charities, etc. where you know what the money is being used for rather than giving your hard earned money to the church to be used to build more churches?
“If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion.” - L. Ron Hubbard
How were you an atheist before? Were you just brought up without any religion, did you go but not buy into it, or is this between time what you were referring to? How did you get into going to church in the first place and what made you go back? Was it a different church or denomination from the first time?
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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ok, thanks for explaining what you meant, point well taken,
I turned away from God and Church all together, yes I did believe in him, just did not want anything to do with him or his people (frame of mind at that point)
Until I realized I was swaying my stance based on peoples actions an attitudes not on the actual God. I attend a charismatic Christian church that bases their church on healing, not the touch your head your healed part, more as in building places where people can come and receive professional help (physchologist, Phychiatrist) our church focuses on the fact that not all ailments are the "devil" work, many or most are human inspired if that makes sense.
Yes tithing is a very small part of our religion, as I have stated this before, and I agree wholeheartedly that yes in many places and religions this is used for personal gain rather than societies gain. I have been a part of the board of directors in our church and seen how it is run as a non-profit organization/corporation.
The Pastors receive very minimal pay and work ungodly hours, the money goes to the society to help the people, we lead our church with a force of showing the difference by example, we dont ask the governent for help, we start the projects and see the governemnt jump in for the marketing opportunity but in the end we get what we want done, and it helps the final user, the people wether believers or not, we have Atheist working side by side with us, why? because we are helping people no matter what, we treat people the same, all.
I was an Atheist prior to convertion, yes, I did grow up with a Catholic grandmother and simply would not by into it. for many years (31). Was I tolerant of the church? sure, I have always separated people beliefs from their worth, always.
When I came to the Christian church (charismatic) I saw a different thing, a love equaled tonone I had ever felt, and then realized wht the real love of God was.
please let me know If I answer all of your point or need to clarify further, and will gladly do so
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"Love Life" |
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Hugga_Bear
Forum Plebian
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 292
Local time: 10:59 AM
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: |
HB,
I am glad you have a peacefull life, truly, I am not saying as I stated quite a few times that one piece of the puzzle is all that God gives example peace, you seem to impy that " Hey I have peace, and your God did not help" not my intention at all for you to think that way, there are many other things that I as a Christian look for, as salvation. Now that is a point I understand we will never agree on as you dont see it necessary or a reality of life. |
aye you're right there.
| Newman wrote: | | I dont judge you a fool for not believing in God, so your immediate judgement regarding myself seems a little immature, not as an insult but an observation. |
Fair reason. I get frustrated with the religious, its like talking to a gramophone that keeps saying the same things at regular intervals, maybe you are different.
| Newman wrote: | Never implied that I am a weak individual as it is obvious that your unbiased view of Christian is making you think the same, and this mind set is more of what Atheist complain about regarding Christians, that we see Atheist as devil worshippers, that we see you as a child molester, and many other non-sense I have read many times, but yet I have not seen any of the Theist that are here always, say anything to that extent, on the contrary, it seems we are far more tolerable of your non-belief that you are capable of handling our beliefs without the need for petty insults. if you take that in mind it would seem as there are many insecure people than cant simply handle other beliefs, that cant handle "difference" in thnking.
no need to pity me..  |
I have been called many things by the church thats true.
I used to be a christian brother I know how to think differently, were I to run around and shout im an atheist and get angry at anyone who didnt agree with me I would no doubt be dead very shortly, or at least in severe pain im currently in india and atheism is regarded as the single most disgusting thing that could exist.
Of the theists here most seem decent, however you fail to realise that we have to deal with more than just you kind souls.
As for the petty insults, frustration.
So you were once christian, left, then became christian again?
Curious. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
How were you an atheist before? Were you just brought up without any religion, did you go but not buy into it, or is this between time what you were referring to? How did you get into going to church in the first place and what made you go back? Was it a different church or denomination from the first time? |
In those days, he was into TRANSFORMERS... |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 6:59 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
How were you an atheist before? Were you just brought up without any religion, did you go but not buy into it, or is this between time what you were referring to? How did you get into going to church in the first place and what made you go back? Was it a different church or denomination from the first time? |
In those days, he was into TRANSFORMERS... |
Who wasn't? They're more than meets the eye.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 6:59 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: |
please let me know If I answer all of your point or need to clarify further, and will gladly do so |
No, that covers it. Thanks for the honest answer.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
How were you an atheist before? Were you just brought up without any religion, did you go but not buy into it, or is this between time what you were referring to? How did you get into going to church in the first place and what made you go back? Was it a different church or denomination from the first time? |
In those days, he was into TRANSFORMERS... |
Who wasn't? They're more than meets the eye.
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There's a difference between knowing you're playing a fantasy game, and when you're not. Newman is incapable of knowing the difference... |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
HB,
I am glad you have a peacefull life, truly, I am not saying as I stated quite a few times that one piece of the puzzle is all that God gives example peace, you seem to impy that " Hey I have peace, and your God did not help" not my intention at all for you to think that way, there are many other things that I as a Christian look for, as salvation. Now that is a point I understand we will never agree on as you dont see it necessary or a reality of life. |
aye you're right there.
| Newman wrote: | | I dont judge you a fool for not believing in God, so your immediate judgement regarding myself seems a little immature, not as an insult but an observation. |
Fair reason. I get frustrated with the religious, its like talking to a gramophone that keeps saying the same things at regular intervals, maybe you are different.
| Newman wrote: | Never implied that I am a weak individual as it is obvious that your unbiased view of Christian is making you think the same, and this mind set is more of what Atheist complain about regarding Christians, that we see Atheist as devil worshippers, that we see you as a child molester, and many other non-sense I have read many times, but yet I have not seen any of the Theist that are here always, say anything to that extent, on the contrary, it seems we are far more tolerable of your non-belief that you are capable of handling our beliefs without the need for petty insults. if you take that in mind it would seem as there are many insecure people than cant simply handle other beliefs, that cant handle "difference" in thnking.
no need to pity me.. |
I have been called many things by the church thats true.
I used to be a christian brother I know how to think differently, were I to run around and shout im an atheist and get angry at anyone who didnt agree with me I would no doubt be dead very shortly, or at least in severe pain im currently in india and atheism is regarded as the single most disgusting thing that could exist.
Of the theists here most seem decent, however you fail to realise that we have to deal with more than just you kind souls.
As for the petty insults, frustration.
So you were once christian, left, then became christian again?
Curious. |
HB,
thanks, no, I was an Atheist for a better part of my life (31 yrs) converted to Christianity and for a while did turn my back on the church and God,
appreciate your answer
_________________
"Love Life" |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
please let me know If I answer all of your point or need to clarify further, and will gladly do so |
No, that covers it. Thanks for the honest answer. |
no problem BATM
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"Love Life" |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
How were you an atheist before? Were you just brought up without any religion, did you go but not buy into it, or is this between time what you were referring to? How did you get into going to church in the first place and what made you go back? Was it a different church or denomination from the first time? |
In those days, he was into TRANSFORMERS... |
Who wasn't? They're more than meets the eye.
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There's a difference between knowing you're playing a fantasy game, and when you're not. Newman is incapable of knowing the difference... |
blah blah blah.........more of the same
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"Love Life" |
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dcicero
Intern
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 57
Local time: 5:59 AM
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: What to do if God doesn't respond? |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | New blog post
To all the theists out there...if a non-believer came to you and honestly wanted to hear God or know he was there, what would you recommend? |
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
So biblically your scenario is a non-sequitor |
+1 AND IN RESPONSE TO MADDOGMA :
For understanding is the recompense of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand so that you may believe, but believe that you may understand; for unless you believe, you will not understand. - St. Augustine |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: What to do if God doesn't respond? |
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| dcicero wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | New blog post
To all the theists out there...if a non-believer came to you and honestly wanted to hear God or know he was there, what would you recommend? |
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
So biblically your scenario is a non-sequitor |
+1 AND IN RESPONSE TO MADDOGMA :
For understanding is the recompense of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand so that you may believe, but believe that you may understand; for unless you believe, you will not understand. - St. Augustine |
Yes, believe in science, not God... |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: What to do if God doesn't respond? |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | New blog post
To all the theists out there...if a non-believer came to you and honestly wanted to hear God or know he was there, what would you recommend? |
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
So biblically your scenario is a non-sequitor |
I don't tend to like this "escape clause" of chalking up God not communicating with certain people to there being something wrong with the person and their lack of faith. You guys sure are quick blame the person for not "believing enough". Are you saying that as a kid when I prayed that I didn't believe hard enough or something? How does one go about having enough faith as the passage suggests? |
well, here are my .02, I have seen many times and spoke to many people regarding their faith when they were little, its hard to exactly put a finger on why kids are frustrated with the prayer issue, 2 things always come to mind:
1. Instant gratification - as you know as a kid this is our primary objective on things, we need, and we need it now
2. as a kid, what are we asking for? I can tell you what I asked for, and probably a 100 reasons why I did not get them, lol
I am not so sure its a faith factor, kids believe with all their hearts |
I didn't believe in god....not even a little bit. |
That's because your momma, when you were 5, didn't give you oreo cookies...  |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8947
Local time: 7:59 PM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: What to do if God doesn't respond? |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | New blog post
To all the theists out there...if a non-believer came to you and honestly wanted to hear God or know he was there, what would you recommend? |
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
So biblically your scenario is a non-sequitor |
I don't tend to like this "escape clause" of chalking up God not communicating with certain people to there being something wrong with the person and their lack of faith. You guys sure are quick blame the person for not "believing enough". Are you saying that as a kid when I prayed that I didn't believe hard enough or something? How does one go about having enough faith as the passage suggests? |
well, here are my .02, I have seen many times and spoke to many people regarding their faith when they were little, its hard to exactly put a finger on why kids are frustrated with the prayer issue, 2 things always come to mind:
1. Instant gratification - as you know as a kid this is our primary objective on things, we need, and we need it now
2. as a kid, what are we asking for? I can tell you what I asked for, and probably a 100 reasons why I did not get them, lol
I am not so sure its a faith factor, kids believe with all their hearts |
I didn't believe in god....not even a little bit. |
That's because your momma, when you were 5, didn't give you oreo cookies... |
At least she didn't give me booze and stale crackers.
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Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
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sportspadawan13
Intern
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 32
Local time: 5:59 AM
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Haha that is true, I'm sure Britney Spears can't say the same |
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