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romans120
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Genetics and the Extremely Long Ages of Genesis |
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In the omnipotence/and the rock conundrum thread Hugga_bear asked me a question. I thought I would start a new thread on the topic because I'm interested in what you science types think
Hugga_Bear
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how was the world populated (and then repopulated after the flood) with only one gene line, inbreeding would surely swiftly wipe out humanity on both occassions.
Also how do you exlain humanitys apparent longevity, again the lack of speed of these computers and my lack of a handy bible mean I cannot quote for you but the lists in Genesis show some quite outstanding ages. Are we to assume that Adams seed was this strong?
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I am not a geneticist and all the Bible tells us is that men lived to be 900+ pre-flood and post flood the average age of men declined significantly. There is a passage in scripture that attributes this decline to a direct act of God
| Quote: | | 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in(1 )man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years. |
However, I do not think that the longevity of Adam was unnatural but I am also not a geneticist so here is where you guys come in. Here is the prevailing notion amongst us fundies. It is a theory promoted by John Whitcomb and Henry Morris. I am going to give you the gist from memory cause I don't feel like looking it up.
The longevity of Adam through Noah and to some extent after Noah is that the genetic code was free from corruptions. Inbreeding was not a problem because since no corruptions had yet crept into the code they would not be compounded by the union of those closely related in their genetic make up. This purity of the gene pool stayed relativley stable until the genepool was reduced to noahs family where corruptions were then more consentrated and then began to replicate more rapidly
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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using science to... disprove science.
wow.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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aitm
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Didn't Cain marry a gal from Nod or someplace? (damn my memory is going) and where did she come from again?
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The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb |
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | | Didn't Cain marry a gal from Nod or someplace? (damn my memory is going) and where did she come from again? |
no dang it he had sex with his wife in Nod his wife/sister traveled with him to that location see my more complete poste here
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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wait.. wait...
are you pulling a "Science of the Gaps"???
O_O
you ARE! you TOTALLY ARE!
you're finding gaps in the Bible and trying to use science to fill them (genetics, etcs)!!!!
AAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!
too much.... irony... can;t breath!... hahahhaha!!!
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dobie
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Any self respecting geneticist would tell you that adam did not have a pure genetic line, as he evolved from apes, and apes had corrupted lines. Technically, though, what you mean by "corrupted" is a little slanted. In genetics, there is no such thing as a "corrupt" gene. When you inbreed, the processs simply makes mutations more likely. As most mutations are a detriment to survival, one family inbreeding itself would have very quickly died off.
any more questions?
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kmisho
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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From neolithic times to the present, humans have gone from an average life expectancy of about 30 years to about 70 years.
Ramses the Great lived to age 90 or so around 1200 BC. As far as anyone knows the upper age limit for humans is and has always been about 120 years. No one in human history is known to have lived to the age fo 200, much less the absurdly high numbers given in the Bible.
One possible explanation is that the OT refers to MONTHS, not years. 900/12=75. It's at least a believable age. Living to 900 is simply not believable.
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kmisho
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| dobie wrote: | Any self respecting geneticist would tell you that adam did not have a pure genetic line, as he evolved from apes, and apes had corrupted lines. Technically, though, what you mean by "corrupted" is a little slanted. In genetics, there is no such thing as a "corrupt" gene. When you inbreed, the processs simply makes mutations more likely. As most mutations are a detriment to survival, one family inbreeding itself would have very quickly died off.
any more questions? |
Close inbreeding accumulates mutations and genetic diseases. It's the accumulation of defects that causes problems.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| dobie wrote: | Any self respecting geneticist would tell you that adam did not have a pure genetic line, as he evolved from apes, and apes had corrupted lines. Technically, though, what you mean by "corrupted" is a little slanted. In genetics, there is no such thing as a "corrupt" gene. When you inbreed, the processs simply makes mutations more likely. As most mutations are a detriment to survival, one family inbreeding itself would have very quickly died off.
any more questions? |
no.
we and apes have a common ancestor.
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | wait.. wait...
are you pulling a "Science of the Gaps"???
O_O
you ARE! you TOTALLY ARE!
you're finding gaps in the Bible and trying to use science to fill them (genetics, etcs)!!!!
AAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!
too much.... irony... can;t breath!... hahahhaha!!! |
O_o say wha....in my OP or my reply to aitm
if it is in my OP that argument is all Whitcomb and Morris I don't know what I think of it yet. I'm content with just the answer in Genesis 6 that God limited the days to man to 120 years also it will not always be limited because Revelation teaches that man in the Millennial kingdom both believers and unbelievers will live for extremly long periods of time again so I already see problems with the pure gene pool theory.
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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PLEASE don't tell me you take genesis 6 seriously, like the parts where the Nephilim had sex with women and produced hercules-like heros.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | PLEASE don't tell me you take genesis 6 seriously, like the parts where the Nephilim had sex with women and produced hercules-like heros. |
hey, dammit.. thats good material. its the inspiration for my graphics novels!
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | PLEASE don't tell me you take genesis 6 seriously, like the parts where the Nephilim had sex with women and produced hercules-like heros. |
Yes I take Genesis 6 seriously but I don't come to your conclusion, not to say I have a strong position because the Hebrew here is out of my league.
| Quote: | | Genesis 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in(1 )man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nephilim(1 )were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. |
Yours is one of the theories and probably the most famous but that view is not held by most if any reputable theologians. There intrinsic elements in the text that limit what it could mean. The easiest way to interpret a text is begin with the first subject and identify shifts in subject. The first subject is straight forward - humans had children particularly daughters. The second subject is the "sons of God" this idiom is used of angels, is used later by Christ referring to himself, of men in general and of special men, like prophets. So it is unfounded to say on that title alone that this is talking about angelic beings.
so what we know is that their is a distinction between average man and the entity identified as "sons of God." the result of the immorality the "sons of God" was God limited the years of man. This is the first indication that the "sons of God" means above average humans otherwise God would have taken action against the "sons of God" if they were something distinct from humans.
Next we have another subject shift to the Nephilim. Again the famous idea is that these are demons. But the most common is men that grew to unusual size (maybe 10' tall) what we know for sure is the Nephalim and the "sons of God are the same as seen in the italicized part of the text. The final subject is consistent with the above average human theory since their offspring was also above average just maybe not quite as above average as the "sons of God"
Some other indicators that are not strong but make me think the above theory is right. "sons of God" the hebrew word for God is "elohim" which also means majesty. so an alternative translation for the title is "sons of majesty" but this title is not used anyplace else. and limiting the days is a effective solution because longevity and inbreeding may have perpetuated these outstanding physical features (I know what your going to do with that one)
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Its all fairy-takes, but, you have to admit that Christianity, especially the Catholics, have some really kick-ass mythology. i think its almost as good as the Greeks and their Epics.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | dobie wrote: | Any self respecting geneticist would tell you that adam did not have a pure genetic line, as he evolved from apes, and apes had corrupted lines. Technically, though, what you mean by "corrupted" is a little slanted. In genetics, there is no such thing as a "corrupt" gene. When you inbreed, the processs simply makes mutations more likely. As most mutations are a detriment to survival, one family inbreeding itself would have very quickly died off.
any more questions? |
no.
we and apes have a common ancestor. |
*sigh*.
If that common ancestor were standing in front of you it would by any definition be an ape. Just not any current ape species.
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