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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | so god demands that you PAY him, or he makes bad things happen in your life?
he';s a mobster! |
God: "I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse" |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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Local time: 3:28 AM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | You theists seem awfully insecure with faith. Just admit all you have is blind faith, why try to go with evidence? |
please clarify what kind of evidence, as I have plenty by real life experiences, mine and many other I know.
that you decide to live life by "faith" of men, that is you choice or decision or whatever other pretty word you would like to attach |
There is no reasoning with you because you are not a critical thinker.
I could chock up every thing good that happens to me as god working in my life as well. That is how YOU view it. But good and bad things happen to EVERYONE.
As far as I can tell god/s do not exist.
So anything you call personal experience with god, I call delusion and wishful thinking.
I stand by the statement that god/s do not exist outside the imaginations of men.
I would call that a fact because there is zero evidence to counter it. FAITH is all you have, blind faith in an imaginary friend.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | do you have proof, that I interpreted it? hence the outcome? no? |
On the contrary, it is YOU that have claimed that these things happened in your life DUE to the absence of god.....so it is YOU that have to provide evidence of this. We have already provided examples of people that do not believe in god that do pretty well with their finances and raise well-behaved children (such as myself). So, right now, it's up to you to somehow refute all of that evidence and show that belief in god is directly related to success in life. |
ah no, Dog says that it was Me simply interpreting it that way....
I would like proof, your mixing two very different positive statements and trying to make one as to not answer...
care to answer? |
OMG, why I still answer you is a miracle in itself...
YOU have said that god directly affects your life in that if you stopped believing in him, your finances and relationships would go to crap.....well guess what....we already provided evidence (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the divorce rate among christians) that this theory is completely absurd. God has nothing to do with your success. So once again, it is up to you to prove that what you experienced in your time as a non-believer shoudl be attributed to god, and not to you being a bad father and irresponsible with your money. |
again your assuming God is at fault for their divorce...
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again you're assuming that God is at fault for your wife getting pregnant.
Newman, you are one of the WORST apologetics i have ever seen. |
yes, I am Moloth, at least I accept it, yes, God did give me a child after science and many dollars thrown at them, they failed, but God did not
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
again your assuming God is at fault for their divorce...
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again you're assuming that God is at fault for your wife getting pregnant.
Newman, you are one of the WORST apologetics i have ever seen. |
yes, I am Moloth, at least I accept it, yes, God did give me a child after science and many dollars thrown at them, they failed, but God did not |
thanks for admitting, again, that you're a hypocrite.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 1:28 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | You theists seem awfully insecure with faith. Just admit all you have is blind faith, why try to go with evidence? |
Exactly. That's why I respect my christian friend a lot more than guys like this since he keeps his religion private and understands it's all about blind faith. |
kept it private? do you remember my first post? |
Nope.
But why debate when you know all you have is faith to back you up?
Admit all you have is faith and we shake hands and stop ripping on you.
Deal? |
I live by Faith, I have said this many times Dog, but to ask me to say I dont have situations and acts in my life that are not convincing to me and others that there was intervention of God in my life would be lying to myself. ans I will not do that.
but yes I live by faith , and that has open the doors to God in my life
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Zocrates wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | again your assuming God is at fault for their divorce... |
MORE PROOF YOU'RE EITHER DELUSIONAL AND/OR RETARDED....since I already said the complete opposite:
| Zocrates wrote: | | I'm not saying the reason they got divorced has anything at all to do with god at all. |
| Quote: | | you never provided proof that Gates or Buffet had a better relationship than I do? |
No, those were examples of people that have better financial situations than you. The relationship example was of myself, and I'm not saying mine is better than yours, but I do have a wonderful relationship without god.
So, saying that these things would change without god.....is bullshit. If they fell apart, it's because YOU let the fall apart.
Nothing changes if you stop believing in god kiddo.....only your perception. The outside world does not change. |
Zoc, you must of missunderstood me or I simply did not explain correctly and clear enough, I am believer, I follow and believe in God, therefore my provisions and blessing come from God, I never implied that non believers can have money or have a good relationship, this you implied not me, just want to be clear on that. Because it seems your the type that creates the problem and then solves it to show your superiority
again, I am simply giving you my life experiences, if you have a great relation, more power to you, your limiting Gods scope to so little, its not just about money, relationship, its about being saved, having a peacefull life, having true deep peace within you.
you have asked me for peculiarities that define certain aspects of my Christian life, and I have shared them with you, simple as that.
They are not representative of all people since we have agreed that all people's situation are different and their needs are different.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 1:28 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Zocrates"] | Newman wrote: | | again your assuming God is at fault for their divorce... |
MORE PROOF YOU'RE EITHER DELUSIONAL AND/OR RETARDED....since I already said the complete opposite:
no you did not, you implied that God did not help them as evidence by their divorce rate...
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4348
Local time: 2:28 PM
Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
Depends on what point you want to emphasize. I was going for the point of getting along by not making such a big deal about a word or its' origin.
Each theist is different of course in how they view blessings but I do think the theist rightly or wrongly that does try to see all as blessings or learning experiences does have it one step at least easier than an attitude of never enough or the attitude even of arguing that calling them blessings is a bad thing.
Let's face it, most of us are probably very decent people. We aren't living in a war zone, most of us are at least middle class, none are starving and so on. We are all well off so why not just discuss these great events occasionally and not just the differences? |
Well, most of what I was talking about was directed at Newman and those that directly attribute all the "blessings" to a personal, bearded guy in robes, god using your comment as a launching point. It's just silly to me to attribute all these mundane things to a god that the vast majority of people, regardless of beliefs, experience.
"I'd like to thank Jesus for letting me catch that touchdown pass. It certainly had nothing to do with the years of training, practice, time in the gym, and work to master the sport, nor any of my teammates' efforts like my QB throwing a perfect pass that dropped right in my hands so softly that my grandmother could've caught it. It was all Jesus."
Newman, I get the impression that you're doing the typical trick Christians use of talking about this "time away from God" that was actually just some rebellious stage, down on your luck time, or something like that where you had started fucking up, become a junkie/drunk, lost a job, or whatever, then stopped going to church because of it, though you never really stopped believing or became an intellectual atheist who thought it through(that can't possibly be the case), and completely missed the cause and effect. I've seen numerous theists come on here and say they were atheists at some point and converted back to being Christians, and they all seem to follow this same pattern. Many religions and cults (redundancy alert) feed on people being down on their luck, Christianity, Islam, and Scientology being obvious examples.
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"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 1:28 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | Newman wrote: | personal relationships, the only time I have turned away from God, my relationship with my kids went astray, they simply showed no intention of wanting to be with me, they started doing bad themselves socially (school, friends). one example, the others are too personal
financially, I stop tithing, and my finances went all over the place, I had problems making ends meat vs. when I did start tithing my finances became stable and then I truly feel I was blessed financially.
now, to see yourself struggling financially and to start tithing and see the difference almost immediately and then the same in a negative manner immediately after I stopped, to then receive belssings beyond my realm after I start, its almost impossible to chalk it up to coincidence |
So let me get this straight....you're equating your life going to crap based on your non-belief in god.....and yet there are millions of non-believers with more money and excellent relationships?
What's more probable here:
A) That belief in god is directly linked to success and blessings
or
B) That if your finances go to crap and your kids get out of control, then it's something YOU are not doing.
If you choose A, my dealings with you are officially done as there's nothing more I can say. |
care to prove that (bold)?
choose A , so Oficially done
take good care Zoc, even if we dont agree, I wish you the best |
Bill Gates....I believe he's #3 on the world's richest list....doesn't believe in god. All you need is one example to prove there is not correlation with belief in god and success in life. On the flip side, I've personally know many dysfunctional families that believe in god, as evidenced by the divorce rate in this country.
But I guess you'll still cling to this retarded belief that if you stop believing in god that the external world will change as if god punishes those that don't believe.....despite the contrary evidence. That's called delusion. And you are one fucked up, delusional human being. |
so, Bill Gates is richer than me...off course, does he have a better relationship than me??...........??................??
never said God punishes you.....your unbiased stance is making you very dishonest,
God gives you a choice.....live by my provisions or live by yourss...
my life shows to me that my ability to provide is far less than Gods..
Let me ask you the same way you seems to reason and the same way you seem to assume...
so if taking your personal experience (incredibly valid when it comes from you)
"I've personally know many dysfunctional families that believe in god, as evidenced by the divorce rate in this country"
your assuming they followed God and he just did not help, hence the reason they got divorced? |
Bill Gates hasn't always been an atheist. Also his wife is a theist. Tithing doesn't mean just giving to a church. It means not holding all tightly and sharing with others. Bill and his wife are philanthropists who are doing great things. So whether his wife tithed or not, they lived by the law of tithing more than likely. |
they said they understood tithing but chose not to define it....and I am the one that supposely dodges
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Hugga_Bear
Forum Plebian
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 228
Local time: 6:28 PM
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | Zoc, you must of missunderstood me or I simply did not explain correctly and clear enough, I am believer, I follow and believe in God, therefore my provisions and blessing come from God, I never implied that non believers can have money or have a good relationship, this you implied not me, just want to be clear on that. Because it seems your the type that creates the problem and then solves it to show your superiority
again, I am simply giving you my life experiences, if you have a great relation, more power to you, your limiting Gods scope to so little, its not just about money, relationship, its about being saved, having a peacefull life, having true deep peace within you.
you have asked me for peculiarities that define certain aspects of my Christian life, and I have shared them with you, simple as that.
They are not representative of all people since we have agreed that all people's situation are different and their needs are different. |
So some people are naturally 'blessed' while others must pray to Yahweh to recieve similar blessings? Or are you saying that we are all blessed but only some say thank you? Your belief is entirely irrational and ungrounded either way, just the whim of an upset mind.
I have a peaceful life my friend and I found it well enough on my own, had I been guided here by a divine force I can assure you I would not find it peaceful, I consider myself very powerful and would be insulted if the only way I could find true happiness is if something else showed it to me.
Honestly to me you are sounding like a foolish man who would believe in whichever God was prevalent where he lived. That is unfortunate, have you truly taken time to look at life from an unbiased point of view? those who do seem to regularly fall on our side of this wall. Maybe you should consider an alternative, truly consider an alternative, to you think yourself so weak that without divine intervention you would be as nothing?
If you do then I pity you. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 1:28 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: |
Depends on what point you want to emphasize. I was going for the point of getting along by not making such a big deal about a word or its' origin.
Each theist is different of course in how they view blessings but I do think the theist rightly or wrongly that does try to see all as blessings or learning experiences does have it one step at least easier than an attitude of never enough or the attitude even of arguing that calling them blessings is a bad thing.
Let's face it, most of us are probably very decent people. We aren't living in a war zone, most of us are at least middle class, none are starving and so on. We are all well off so why not just discuss these great events occasionally and not just the differences? |
Well, most of what I was talking about was directed at Newman and those that directly attribute all the "blessings" to a personal, bearded guy in robes, god using your comment as a launching point. It's just silly to me to attribute all these mundane things to a god that the vast majority of people, regardless of beliefs, experience.
"I'd like to thank Jesus for letting me catch that touchdown pass. It certainly had nothing to do with the years of training, practice, time in the gym, and work to master the sport, nor any of my teammates' efforts like my QB throwing a perfect pass that dropped right in my hands so softly that my grandmother could've caught it. It was all Jesus."
Newman, I get the impression that you're doing the typical trick Christians use of talking about this "time away from God" that was actually just some rebellious stage, down on your luck time, or something like that where you had started fucking up, become a junkie/drunk, lost a job, or whatever, then stopped going to church because of it, though you never really stopped believing or became an intellectual atheist who thought it through(that can't possibly be the case), and completely missed the cause and effect. I've seen numerous theists come on here and say they were atheists at some point and converted back to being Christians, and they all seem to follow this same pattern. Many religions and cults (redundancy alert) feed on people being down on their luck, Christianity, Islam, and Scientology being obvious examples. |
BATM,
I can truly see how it would seem that way since I also now people that have done as described, first of all, I did not become an Atheist at that time, I have mentioned before that I was an Atheist prior to converting, wether or not you define it or give the title intelectual atheist or not that is up to you, never have put my beliefs in direct correlation with me intelectual capacity. I turned my back on the Church and God for many reasons, not for being down on luck as you describe (wont go into details as its a sure door opener for the "intelectual Atheist" to say I am vain and all the rest of their "inteligent" comments) at any rate, I was doing very well and simply did not like at all many attitudes and things I saw going on in church. therefore I turned my back on them and God. Now mind you I have never said I received punishment from God for turning my back, he simply let me go on my way (free will) and let me depend and live solely on my provision as I did before coming to God. So I simply went back to my old life style.
please let me know if this clears things up, I do answer at times quickly and my writing skills are not the best, as I am trying to think, translate and write quickly .
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | | Newman wrote: | Zoc, you must of missunderstood me or I simply did not explain correctly and clear enough, I am believer, I follow and believe in God, therefore my provisions and blessing come from God, I never implied that non believers can have money or have a good relationship, this you implied not me, just want to be clear on that. Because it seems your the type that creates the problem and then solves it to show your superiority
again, I am simply giving you my life experiences, if you have a great relation, more power to you, your limiting Gods scope to so little, its not just about money, relationship, its about being saved, having a peacefull life, having true deep peace within you.
you have asked me for peculiarities that define certain aspects of my Christian life, and I have shared them with you, simple as that.
They are not representative of all people since we have agreed that all people's situation are different and their needs are different. |
So some people are naturally 'blessed' while others must pray to Yahweh to recieve similar blessings? Or are you saying that we are all blessed but only some say thank you? Your belief is entirely irrational and ungrounded either way, just the whim of an upset mind.
I have a peaceful life my friend and I found it well enough on my own, had I been guided here by a divine force I can assure you I would not find it peaceful, I consider myself very powerful and would be insulted if the only way I could find true happiness is if something else showed it to me.
Honestly to me you are sounding like a foolish man who would believe in whichever God was prevalent where he lived. That is unfortunate, have you truly taken time to look at life from an unbiased point of view? those who do seem to regularly fall on our side of this wall. Maybe you should consider an alternative, truly consider an alternative, to you think yourself so weak that without divine intervention you would be as nothing?
If you do then I pity you. |
HB,
I am glad you have a peacefull life, truly, I am not saying as I stated quite a few times that one piece of the puzzle is all that God gives example peace, you seem to impy that " Hey I have peace, and your God did not help" not my intention at all for you to think that way, there are many other things that I as a Christian look for, as salvation. Now that is a point I understand we will never agree on as you dont see it necessary or a reality of life.
I dont judge you a fool for not believing in God, so your immediate judgement regarding myself seems a little immature, not as an insult but an observation.
Never implied that I am a weak individual as it is obvious that your unbiased view of Christian is making you think the same, and this mind set is more of what Atheist complain about regarding Christians, that we see Atheist as devil worshippers, that we see you as a child molester, and many other non-sense I have read many times, but yet I have not seen any of the Theist that are here always, say anything to that extent, on the contrary, it seems we are far more tolerable of your non-belief that you are capable of handling our beliefs without the need for petty insults. if you take that in mind it would seem as there are many insecure people than cant simply handle other beliefs, that cant handle "difference" in thnking.
no need to pity me..
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| dobie wrote: | Hmm... newman, you seem to be saying that without god relationships falter and finances crumble, so it would be better to believe in god. At least that's what I think you're saying.
I would like to point out that, as atheists do not believe in god, they will try to solve their problems themselves, and not pray, or go to church, or talk to their priest/pastors.
On the other hand, you strike me as someone who has accepted jesus into their heart, and is now doing quite well.
What I don't understand is why you're taking issue with atheists for being consistent with their belief system. I don't think that you are going to convince many of them to join the christian faith, but if their lives are falling apart at the seams, they are liable to notice that without your help.
And as long as your life has turned around, well..., that's great, I guess. I respect everyone who's actions are consistent with their beliefs. But that's exactly what atheists are doing, too.
Why are you even saying what you have, then? |
Dobie,
thanks first of all for your respectful answer, I guess it would seem like this if you have not read the gazillion post we have done
let me re-cap a little as to better understand my stance and point,
No, I am not saying that I left God and he pusnished me, not at all, I am saying I turned my back on God and he simply let me provide for myself as before I had converted, two different things.. one is free will, go on your ways, the other is punishment.
I truly understand the mind of Atheist as I was prior to conversion, if you had read my original post, I was not here to interact regarding faith, was not here to convert anybody, not here to preach, was here to share many theories that to me are very interesting, origin and such. I also enjoy the mind set of an Atheist, as I am a person that through out life has questioned everything, even God. I dont have a problem with that at all.
Why I mentioned what I have? purely as an answer to why I felt blessed, not to impress, I am not immature enough to try to impress "people" that have fake names and a avatar for their personal representation in the web. again purely out of many questions regarding the why.
I came here looking for answer to many other questions, and all I found is a group who simply wants to talk down faith and christianity, a group who (some) simple are not tolerant enough of different beliefs, they attach respect, intelectual capacity and reality to faith. To me thats more dangerous than the many things they complain about.
at any rate, I hope I have answered you questions, let me know if not and will be glad to answer more or clear up anything.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Zocrates"] | ShaSha wrote: | | Bill Gates hasn't always been an atheist. Also his wife is a theist. Tithing doesn't mean just giving to a church. It means not holding all tightly and sharing with others. Bill and his wife are philanthropists who are doing great things. So whether his wife tithed or not, they lived by the law of tithing more than likely. |
I've never said that people that do good things often live rewarding and successful lives, because they do. There is no evidence whatsoever that a god has anything to do with this. You and Newman are suggesting that it's because Bill Gates and his wife give large sums of money to charity that god has decided to bless him with more success, and there is no evidence for this.
Zoc, this statement is very dishonest as I have never implied that. you either are not reading what I write to you or just simply trying hard to belittle me with your own misinterpretations.
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ShaSha
Moderator
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I didn't say Bill did or didn't tithe but rather pointed out the possibility that he may have. I didn't point it out as evidence but rather was countering the simple statement that Bill is an atheist so that made tithing null and void. No, neither side has evidence to support that tithing does or doesn't work. No biggee because god works through atheists and theists alike as the bible says IMO. But god doesn't give all equal everything. We are each individuals and what we get is what we believe (continually think about) we will get and the invisible force some call god then goes into action
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These are thoughts that I am sharing and I have no intention of getting into a debate and little time. Just think it through and take it or leave it. I am not out to convince anyone, but this is an overall good thread for why some don't get their prayers answered. It is that continual quiet dialogue that runs thorugh the mind until it gets disciplined. Many ask and then one second later the thought comes through, what's the use etc. etc. etc. This is why it sometimes takes time because we have to counter that old programming that this can work and let teh timing be the universe's or god's if you prefer that word. |
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