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Rollover
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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I dunno if I will eb answered heree...
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
to me this mean god was threatened by man, and not omnipotent. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Did God sign a contract, saying, I'll be honest with these puny creatures who call themselves humans??? |
What? So this supposed omnipotent being can't accomplish a task thought up by a puny little human? Some God. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Rollover wrote: | I dunno if I will eb answered heree...
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
to me this mean god was threatened by man, and not omnipotent. |
heh... the tower of babel story always seemed like the dumbest story to me... its like the moral of the story is "don't be smart or god will punish you".
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Rollover wrote: | I dunno if I will eb answered heree...
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
to me this mean god was threatened by man, and not omnipotent. |
heh... the tower of babel story always seemed like the dumbest story to me... its like the moral of the story is "don't be smart or god will punish you". |
God didn't punish anybody in that story.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Moloth
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Rollover wrote: | I dunno if I will eb answered heree...
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
to me this mean god was threatened by man, and not omnipotent. |
heh... the tower of babel story always seemed like the dumbest story to me... its like the moral of the story is "don't be smart or god will punish you". |
God didn't punish anybody in that story. |
he scrambled the languages, sent people flying to all corners of the Earth and destroyed the tower, correct?
what was that? a gift? a reward? O_o
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Hugga_Bear
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: |
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obviously it was a reward because man was too cocky for his own good...jeez know nothing?
actually I want to see how romans justifies it as good....
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Rollover wrote: | I dunno if I will eb answered heree...
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
to me this mean god was threatened by man, and not omnipotent. |
heh... the tower of babel story always seemed like the dumbest story to me... its like the moral of the story is "don't be smart or god will punish you". |
God didn't punish anybody in that story. |
he scrambled the languages, sent people flying to all corners of the Earth and destroyed the tower, correct?
what was that? a gift? a reward? O_o |
It may have not been pleasant but It wasn't wrathful either. In a way God was being gracious because humanity was not being obedient either. Consider the command of Genesis 1:28 | Quote: | Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
" |
With
| Quote: | Genesis 11:4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth."
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Also God did not destroy anything
| Quote: | | Genesis 11:8 So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. |
I'm kinda glad we arn't all crammed into one small corner of the globe. You really think society is good in India? It was necessary for man to spread out so God removed the ability for man to unite en mass. I don't see that as malevolent or vengeful.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Hugga_Bear
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Joined: 01 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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nothing wrong with society in India thank you very much. (ok there it is, I hate this place  )
So the reason man is spread across the globe is the babel story? I don't see how that would have happened, humanity is naturally curious and as is obvious by recent history we do not like being crammed in a corner, I just think God was worried theyd realise he wasnt in the clouds, that'd ruin all the pretty pictures to come.
Can you answer me a quick question Romans, seeing as you seem to know the scripture well. When Adam and Eve left their son found a wife outside of Eden (I forget the name, but its in Genesis) where did these people come from? Were they previous failed experiments of Yahweh's? or is it because Garden of Eden is metaphorical?
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Hugga_Bear wrote: | nothing wrong with society in India thank you very much. (ok there it is, I hate this place )
So the reason man is spread across the globe is the babel story? I don't see how that would have happened, humanity is naturally curious and as is obvious by recent history we do not like being crammed in a corner, I just think God was worried theyd realise he wasnt in the clouds, that'd ruin all the pretty pictures to come.
Can you answer me a quick question Romans, seeing as you seem to know the scripture well. When Adam and Eve left their son found a wife outside of Eden (I forget the name, but its in Genesis) where did these people come from? Were they previous failed experiments of Yahweh's? or is it because Garden of Eden is metaphorical? |
You are referring to Caine. To answere your question lets take a birds eye view of the whole story found in Genesis 4. The account says that Caine was born first and shortly after Abel was born. Caine and Abel grew into adulthood and were living out their livelyhood. Caine a cultivator of crops and Abel a keeper of sheep. As the story progresses Caine murders Abel because of Jealousy and becomes an outcast. This is the point where general argument is made that there is a contradiction.
| Quote: | Genesis 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod,(1 )east of Eden. 17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
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The argument generaly goes if Adam and Eve were the only humans and Cain and Abel were the only sons who did Cain meet in Nod? So here is my answer
According to Genesis Adam was 130 years when He fathered Seth | Quote: | Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
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When Seth was born Eve considered him a replacement for Abel
| Quote: | Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, "God has appointed(1 )for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him."
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So Abel was dead when Seth was born so the story of Cain and Abel occurred within the span of at least 130 years. And Because Eve considered Seth a replacement the murder probably occurred closer the the 130 year mark. Adam and Eve were created immediately able to have children. It appears they had Cain and Abel in quick succession there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. In short Cain and Abel Married their sisters. There was no prohibition against this. They married sisters and probably both had children and grandchildren before Cain ever went to Nod. Their is nothing in the text that would indicate he met his wife in Nod either. He took his wife with him and bore a child in Nod is what would be natural to the text.
Concession - the only reasonable objection is the genealogies. A Proper Hebrew genealogy list first borns only. There is variation but there is usually a detailed reason given why (exp. Jacob and Esau, Gen 25 > Rom 9) Gaps were considered acceptable (A firstborn Grandfather being listed as the father of a firstborn grandson.) So if Adam and Eve as well as Cain and Abel were cranking out kids why is Seth in the birthright position in Adams Genealogy since there is nothing in the text that would mean Adam and Eve had all girls after Cain and Abel were born. And Cain and lots of time to have children (boys and girls) before he went to Nod yet Enoch (the first child born in Nod) holds the birthright position in the Genealogies.
However, I do not see this as a strong objection because Seth could have really been a positional replacement and deserving of the birthright even though he had older brothers and Enoch was father of a new nation known as the Edomites so his place in the genealogy is easily justified as well
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Hugga_Bear
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Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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wow, you're handy...
next question how was the world populated (and then repopulated after the flood) with only one gene line, inbreeding would surely swiftly wipe out humanity on both occassions.
Also how do you exlain humanitys apparent longevity, again the lack of speed of these computers and my lack of a handy bible mean I cannot quote for you but the lists in Genesis show some quite outstanding ages. Are we to assume that Adams seed was this strong?
Questioning something I dont even believe is fascinating.
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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"there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. "
yes, there is. its not in the bible. are you adding stuff the bible, Romans? do you consider yourself biblical author?
are you doing the "well, what god MEANT was... what Jesus MEANT was... what the bible MEANT was..." thing?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | "there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. "
yes, there is. its not in the bible. are you adding stuff the bible, Romans? do you consider yourself biblical author?
are you doing the "well, what god MEANT was... what Jesus MEANT was... what the bible MEANT was..." thing? |
No I'm not adding anything all they needed to do was have sex If the Bible doesn't say either way you are free to assume the natural course of things. Some people are fertile and can pop out the little varmints at will. besides my argument doesn't live or die on that point. It was not common (their are a few exceptions) to have a girl listed in the genealogy yet we know there were girls obviously born so to assume there were girls born not mentioned in scripture is very reasonable and does not add or take away from the text
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | "there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. "
yes, there is. its not in the bible. are you adding stuff the bible, Romans? do you consider yourself biblical author?
are you doing the "well, what god MEANT was... what Jesus MEANT was... what the bible MEANT was..." thing? |
No I'm not adding anything all they needed to do was have sex If the Bible doesn't say either way you are free to assume the natural course of things. Some people are fertile and can pop out the little varmints at will. besides my argument doesn't live or die on that point. It was not common (their are a few exceptions) to have a girl listed in the genealogy yet we know there were girls obviously born so to assume there were girls born not mentioned in scripture is very reasonable and does not add or take away from the text |
yes, it DOES add to the text. you're adding in entire generations and people that the bible does not mention, in order for the (nonsensical) story to make sense.
you ARE doing the "well, what the Bible MEANT was..." thing. look, either follow the bible or cherry pick/edit it how you see fit. at least be honest about it.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | "there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. "
yes, there is. its not in the bible. are you adding stuff the bible, Romans? do you consider yourself biblical author?
are you doing the "well, what god MEANT was... what Jesus MEANT was... what the bible MEANT was..." thing? |
No I'm not adding anything all they needed to do was have sex If the Bible doesn't say either way you are free to assume the natural course of things. Some people are fertile and can pop out the little varmints at will. besides my argument doesn't live or die on that point. It was not common (their are a few exceptions) to have a girl listed in the genealogy yet we know there were girls obviously born so to assume there were girls born not mentioned in scripture is very reasonable and does not add or take away from the text |
yes, it DOES add to the text. you're adding in entire generations and people that the bible does not mention, in order for the (nonsensical) story to make sense.
you ARE doing the "well, what the Bible MEANT was..." thing. look, either follow the bible or cherry pick/edit it how you see fit. at least be honest about it. |
I know how genealogies work, the author of Genesis also knows how genealogies work. He does not have to explicitly give every detail if everybody knows the mechanics of what a genealogy is. I am sorry but the Cain argument boils down to nit picking. Genealogies are not family trees it is a list of heads of households. Households demand both male and female members. the fact that there is a head of household implies a household which implies the birth of female members into that household.
If you are not educated on the topic of scripture what is somebody to do other then tell you what it means. if you are engaging in discussion
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 22585
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | "there is no reason to not assume they had other children in quick succession. "
yes, there is. its not in the bible. are you adding stuff the bible, Romans? do you consider yourself biblical author?
are you doing the "well, what god MEANT was... what Jesus MEANT was... what the bible MEANT was..." thing? |
No I'm not adding anything all they needed to do was have sex If the Bible doesn't say either way you are free to assume the natural course of things. Some people are fertile and can pop out the little varmints at will. besides my argument doesn't live or die on that point. It was not common (their are a few exceptions) to have a girl listed in the genealogy yet we know there were girls obviously born so to assume there were girls born not mentioned in scripture is very reasonable and does not add or take away from the text |
yes, it DOES add to the text. you're adding in entire generations and people that the bible does not mention, in order for the (nonsensical) story to make sense.
you ARE doing the "well, what the Bible MEANT was..." thing. look, either follow the bible or cherry pick/edit it how you see fit. at least be honest about it. |
I know how genealogies work, the author of Genesis also knows how genealogies work. He does not have to explicitly give every detail if everybody knows the mechanics of what a genealogy is. I am sorry but the Cain argument boils down to nit picking. Genealogies are not family trees it is a list of heads of households. Households demand both male and female members. the fact that there is a head of household implies a household which implies the birth of female members into that household.
If you are not educated on the topic of scripture what is somebody to do other then tell you what it means. if you are engaging in discussion |
really? how do you know this? what evidence do you have? seems to me that the evidence, the Bible itself, is VERY clear and precise.
who are YOU to question and alter the bible to suit you're own means? who do you think you are? King James?
Christians... sheesh. "Believe in the Bible! its the perfect word of GOD! er... but not that part.. it actually means something other than what it says... but.. uh.. Believe in the Bible!"
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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