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Vyrian
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Vyrian wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Sure not everyone that is a crazy fundy has control of these specific things. But it only takes one of them to do something as stupid as country-wide genocide. It is faster for them now than it was back in the day. But I suppose in that sense it hasn't changed in it's meaning of dangerous. Just different methods of getting the same job done. |
generalizing again, not everybody is a crazy fundy |
I wasn't generalizing. I specifically called out Crazy Fundies. I didn't say Moderates or common folk. If I meant the entire Christian nation, I would have said Christians. You're going to see problems with the posts I make if all you're looking for are problems.
"Sure not everyone that is a crazy fundy has control of these specific things." First sentence I state that I am directing my comment toward the subject of Crazy Fundies that would like that. Ofcourse Christianity has been seriously watered down since the middle ages and it's less of a threat, but I made it clear I wasn't talking bout the Water-People, but about the Fundamentalists that have the possibility and desire to do the mentioned.
In those days it took one to kill a few, but in these days it only takes one to kill thousands. But it is the same in that it is just a different method for them to get the same job done.
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Citizen X
Forum Plebian
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Many atheists are intolerant of religion, and based on what I've seen on this site, tend to belittle religious minded people (I've been guilty of this myself). But you should never assume an entire group of people is this way based on the few you may have met. Going completely on my experience, I was quite angry, specifically with Christianity, after losing my faith. I was angry because I knew many Christians who had been fully educated on Christian history, and they failed to pass on their knowledge to their congregations. I'm not suggesting that this knowledge would cause a mass exodus from Christianity if all were to suddenly gain this knowledge, only that it should have been presented so an educated decision could be made. But, by keeping it from people, made it appear as though there was something worth hiding. I felt as though I had been lied to for a large portion of my life, and I was pissed. And due to this, I went through a period of my life in which I was very intolerant specifically towards Christians. And some of this anger occasionally works its way out, unfortunately. I can only guess that other atheists have gone through their own experiences with Christianity which has left them very angry at Christianity, and, having not fully dealt with that anger, tend to take it out on every Christian they meet.
Your reasoning simply is not a good reasoning for refuting atheism. That would be no different than an individual refuting Christianity based solely on the individuals they have encountered who were Christians. You will find good and bad atheists, as you will find good and bad Christians. But the atheists you encounter are not the core foundation of what atheism is. No more than the Christians that I meet are the core foundation of what Christianity is. Both ideologies stand separate from the individuals who choose to believe them. Your reasoning is similar to an individual that hates, or is intolerant, to those of a different race. It isn't the same, but it is very similar.
In my opinion, people should base their beliefs on sound evidence, the rules of logic, and scientific theory. If Christianity, or any religion, for that matter, was shown to be evident based on this criteria, I, along with many other atheists, would likely believe in that religion wholeheartedly. But, no religion, as of yet, is capable of basing its foundation on this criteria. That, in and of itself, does not prove atheism, nor does it disprove religion. But the pendulum definitely sways towards atheism, looking specifically at this criteria.
In my experience, Christians have been more intolerant of atheists than atheists being intolerant of Christians. When I lost my faith, only 2 of my Christian friends were willing and able to stay my friend, and I wasn't even an atheist at this point. I was not allowed to attend church functions or church camps. The concern was that, since I had been an integral part at these functions, it was felt that I would confuse the people who were in attendance. The real concern is that I had been so aggressive in recruiting Christians, they felt that I would be just as aggressive in trying to get Christians to lose their faith. Losing my faith was the most difficult thing that I ever went through, as I lost the vast majority of the friendships that I had. Simply because I no longer believed what they believed.
You will meet all sorts of people through your life who will affect you in many different ways. They will stir emotions within you, causing you to react in many different ways. But when you make really tough decisions in life, successful people tend to remove the emotion out of the decision. Your decision regarding what ideology you choose to believe in should be dealt with in the same manner.
Just my $0.02.
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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Vyrian wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Sure not everyone that is a crazy fundy has control of these specific things. But it only takes one of them to do something as stupid as country-wide genocide. It is faster for them now than it was back in the day. But I suppose in that sense it hasn't changed in it's meaning of dangerous. Just different methods of getting the same job done. |
generalizing again, not everybody is a crazy fundy |
*smack head*
"ATHEISTS ARE ALL BAD PEOPLE, HATE OTHER PEOPLE FOR THINKING DIFFERENTLY, CONSTANTLY ATTACK IN INSECURITY, WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
"Guys, stop generalizing, its not right!"
-Parphrased Newman comments by Shiranu.
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RyanDzundza
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:25 am Post subject: |
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i seriously hope newman was mesing when he told vyrian to stop generalizing,
its rather that or he has double standards for christians and atheists in which case your a dumbass 
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aitm
using the thinker thingy
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Christanity for the masses, and I speak in general here, are really not that convinced in a God. Oh they say they believe, and they go to church and they might even take part in protests, but the protest part is more like the "pack" mentality, that being, because they are so many of us we must therefore be right. But other than that, the mass of Christians are really not that sure of a God, hence they ban together for mutual re-inforcement.
One reason we don't see Christians blowing themselves up, and let me pre-face that by claiming my ignorance of the dedication of Christians in other parts of the world, I can only formulate based on my experience with North Americans, it that through education they themselves realize the absurdity of their religion but they desperately WANT there to be a God, but they don't trust this god enough to go off killing themselves for it (not getting that pony, or not having your father survive cancer may have something to do with that). They certainly use this a back-up and a crutch when they become soldiers, and I can't argue with that.
Islam, on the other hand, as well as other religions in under educated societies, are quite convinced in their god, this makes them far more dangerous.
It is not the odd-ball demonination that I worry about, because other Christians dis-trust them as well. Remember, our own Christian supreme court put limits on many religious practices despite the 1st amedment, this tells us that we allow religious freedoms, but not the whacky kinds. One thing I find admiralble in Americans, which oddly enough also points out their hypocricy, is that they will in a heart beat, turn in someone who religious fanaticism alarms them. I call this the "you are not more religous than I am just because you think you are" syndrome. And I am thankful that many religious assume they are more religious and therefore more moral than their neighbors. Of course it is that tendency as well, that leads us to adopt more and more laws and ordinances restricting personal freedoms. but that is for another rant.
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Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb |
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kmisho
Stochastic
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Oh. I thought it had to do with miracles n shit. Liar.
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Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
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You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Don't capitalize Atheism.
What insecurity? You're only spreading a doctrine of intolerance and destruction born from those who were oppressed themselves and only hope lied in delusions of grandeur.
There's hating people who think differently and then there's hating people who think destroying the rights of others is justifiable ala their fairy tale.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 2:44 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Citizen X wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Many atheists are intolerant of religion, and based on what I've seen on this site, tend to belittle religious minded people (I've been guilty of this myself). But you should never assume an entire group of people is this way based on the few you may have met. Going completely on my experience, I was quite angry, specifically with Christianity, after losing my faith. I was angry because I knew many Christians who had been fully educated on Christian history, and they failed to pass on their knowledge to their congregations. I'm not suggesting that this knowledge would cause a mass exodus from Christianity if all were to suddenly gain this knowledge, only that it should have been presented so an educated decision could be made. But, by keeping it from people, made it appear as though there was something worth hiding. I felt as though I had been lied to for a large portion of my life, and I was pissed. And due to this, I went through a period of my life in which I was very intolerant specifically towards Christians. And some of this anger occasionally works its way out, unfortunately. I can only guess that other atheists have gone through their own experiences with Christianity which has left them very angry at Christianity, and, having not fully dealt with that anger, tend to take it out on every Christian they meet.
Your reasoning simply is not a good reasoning for refuting atheism. That would be no different than an individual refuting Christianity based solely on the individuals they have encountered who were Christians. You will find good and bad atheists, as you will find good and bad Christians. But the atheists you encounter are not the core foundation of what atheism is. No more than the Christians that I meet are the core foundation of what Christianity is. Both ideologies stand separate from the individuals who choose to believe them. Your reasoning is similar to an individual that hates, or is intolerant, to those of a different race. It isn't the same, but it is very similar.
In my opinion, people should base their beliefs on sound evidence, the rules of logic, and scientific theory. If Christianity, or any religion, for that matter, was shown to be evident based on this criteria, I, along with many other atheists, would likely believe in that religion wholeheartedly. But, no religion, as of yet, is capable of basing its foundation on this criteria. That, in and of itself, does not prove atheism, nor does it disprove religion. But the pendulum definitely sways towards atheism, looking specifically at this criteria.
In my experience, Christians have been more intolerant of atheists than atheists being intolerant of Christians. When I lost my faith, only 2 of my Christian friends were willing and able to stay my friend, and I wasn't even an atheist at this point. I was not allowed to attend church functions or church camps. The concern was that, since I had been an integral part at these functions, it was felt that I would confuse the people who were in attendance. The real concern is that I had been so aggressive in recruiting Christians, they felt that I would be just as aggressive in trying to get Christians to lose their faith. Losing my faith was the most difficult thing that I ever went through, as I lost the vast majority of the friendships that I had. Simply because I no longer believed what they believed.
You will meet all sorts of people through your life who will affect you in many different ways. They will stir emotions within you, causing you to react in many different ways. But when you make really tough decisions in life, successful people tend to remove the emotion out of the decision. Your decision regarding what ideology you choose to believe in should be dealt with in the same manner.
Just my $0.02. |
thanks for your .02 cents, I have to say I truly appreciated reading your post as its probably one of the first (not the first) to address my post without assumptions and with an honest and respectfull way, I enjoyed your post, and truly understand your point and where your are at and the WHY you got there.
Thanks
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 2:44 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Oh. I thought it had to do with miracles n shit. Liar. |
well as you fail to see in many post that people were asking WHY I was here...? and no one picked up on, was I went through a period that I had many doubts and was in search for answers.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 2:44 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | Christanity for the masses, and I speak in general here, are really not that convinced in a God. Oh they say they believe, and they go to church and they might even take part in protests, but the protest part is more like the "pack" mentality, that being, because they are so many of us we must therefore be right. But other than that, the mass of Christians are really not that sure of a God, hence they ban together for mutual re-inforcement.
One reason we don't see Christians blowing themselves up, and let me pre-face that by claiming my ignorance of the dedication of Christians in other parts of the world, I can only formulate based on my experience with North Americans, it that through education they themselves realize the absurdity of their religion but they desperately WANT there to be a God, but they don't trust this god enough to go off killing themselves for it (not getting that pony, or not having your father survive cancer may have something to do with that). They certainly use this a back-up and a crutch when they become soldiers, and I can't argue with that.
Islam, on the other hand, as well as other religions in under educated societies, are quite convinced in their god, this makes them far more dangerous.
It is not the odd-ball demonination that I worry about, because other Christians dis-trust them as well. Remember, our own Christian supreme court put limits on many religious practices despite the 1st amedment, this tells us that we allow religious freedoms, but not the whacky kinds. One thing I find admiralble in Americans, which oddly enough also points out their hypocricy, is that they will in a heart beat, turn in someone who religious fanaticism alarms them. I call this the "you are not more religous than I am just because you think you are" syndrome. And I am thankful that many religious assume they are more religious and therefore more moral than their neighbors. Of course it is that tendency as well, that leads us to adopt more and more laws and ordinances restricting personal freedoms. but that is for another rant. |
well, I do agree with you in the masses part, as I see it every week, many religious people that act one way in church and other ways outside. although I would not be inclined to say or imply a percentage or an amount.
thanks
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 2:44 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| SpecterOpacus wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | PJS wrote: | | The most dangerous people are those who are full of idealism to the point where they feel violence is justified in bringing a greater good into existence. Such idealism may or may not include religion as the twentieth century proved. When people are on a mission to the point where rules and procedures are rendered irrelevant to ultimate aims, atrocities occur. Be leary of those who zealously pursue their moral mandates- religious or secular. |
hence the reason I was pushed away from Atheism, too intolerant, too strung up on people who think differently, I always feel when someone is constantly attacking others is out of insecurity, not generalizing simply my experience |
Don't capitalize Atheism.
What insecurity? You're only spreading a doctrine of intolerance and destruction born from those who were oppressed themselves and only hope lied in delusions of grandeur.
There's hating people who think differently and then there's hating people who think destroying the rights of others is justifiable ala their fairy tale. |
I capitalized Atheism always out of respect, have said this before..
What insecurity? just read the many post here..
I am not spreading any doctrine of intolerance and destruction (generalizing again, my point exactly)
so, how am I as a Christian in this forum trying to destroy your rights? please explain
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