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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 3008
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Shiranu wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
Why doesn't god just kill Satan? You know? Stop the virus at its source instead of making the infected suffer. |
He will [Rev 20] The purpose of all this is a choice. It most likely has to do with Lucifer's choice to rebel in the first place.
| Quote: | | It may not be caused by god, but it certainly doesn't make him mad enough to prevent it from happening. If you have the power to prevent something bad from happening, it is your responsibility to stop it. Remember with great power comes great responsibility (and webbing). |
Consider, the whole host of heaven lived in the presence of God. They saw Him, saw His works and Creation. His power from the Throne. Satan wanted to be God and receive worship. With that in mind, read Job 1 and 2 and check out satan's conversation with God. |
Wait... so say Rev 20 is right. Let me try to write out a story for you to try and understand this....
There is a man, he is a decent man, never did anything bad, sides maybe curse or w/e on a rare occasion. So, one day, he contracts cancer. Its a treatable cancer, cancer of the nose. He goes to the hospital, and they say "Ummm, yeah, we cant treat it atm, we are busy." So, obviously, he is outraged! But, he goes to other hospitals, and they all seem indiferent. So, time goes on, and he loses his nose, his face, and later his life. Then, years after he has passed away, his familiy gets a call and says, "Hello, Mr. Nosecancerdude, we can treat you now!".
Basically, what you say is that god could help humanity now, but he refuses to. THEN, once every one is dead and in hell, burning for... well, there is no way to measure what a hell-year would be, it could be infinity, and could be a second, who knows?... a long time, decides to help them.
WHY does he willing let people suffer? He is a good god, is he not? That is what you people say, is it not? Yet time and time agian, evidence points to nothing short of a judgemental, sadistic, ego-tripping bastard who gets a hard-on off of the suffering and failings of man kind.
(Story and second part trademarked under ShiranuŽ Inc.  ) |
The purpose is to present an environment where people have the ability to make a genuine choice. The cancer in your illustration can also serve as an illustration of what sin does to mankind. Sin destroys lives and brings death. God allows suffering for a temporary time in this life in order for us to come to the realization that we too (like God) HATE sin, disease, death, hate, prejudice, hurt, war, killing, lies, murder, pedophiles, cheats, and everything else that sin creates.
God wants us to HATE sin and the affects of sin. But man has come to HATE each other and God. This kind of hate is from Lucifer. He will be destroyed in the end. So will death, disease, and sin forever. |
Alright, I can kind of see that. However, he has lead to 9 of the things you named him self... if he hates them so much, how come he would order his chosen tribe to carry out acts that lead to those things, along with other sins? Is the world not sinful enough that he has to start throwing his own attrocities in?
_________________
"I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Make Myself Observed, I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Let Myself Be Heard..." - Seether, Out Of My Way
"Hold me now I need to feel complete...Like I matter to the one I need...I'm so afraid of the gift you give me...I don't belong here and I'm not well. I'm so ashamed of the lie I'm living, i'm right on the wrong side of it all...and I so ashamed of this...yes I am so ashamed of me" Seether - The Gift |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1884
Local time: 4:51 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: |
How is it predetermined? I determined before I determined? Nonsense. The problem here is your refusal to answer a simple question. Instead of answering honestly you decide to dodge it completely saying that the notion is only concieved in my imagination but through your own rhetoric you admit the inanities of the Christian God. Your logic is self defeating and it is quite hilarious. |
Okay...You want to know if an all powerful God can make a rock that He can't lift. Correct? Honestly, Your question is like asking, "what number is one more than infinity?"
1)First, the bible says that God is a Spirit. Sometimes the bible says something like "the hand of God" or "His strong right arm" However, God does not have physical limbs. He is a Spirit.
2)God is all powerful. We call this omnipotence. Omnipotence (by definition) does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail.
3) Therefore God possesses "all" power (every bit of it...there is none left to possess). This "power" is not intended to indicate or portray that God is similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is not working out or anything. Neither are there physical attributes used to lift, stand, or run.
4) God "speaks" matter into existence and by His will the universe is shaped. God is not working at a pottery table with clay and building a diorama or hotrod model.
5) Because 1-4 is true? The question is illogical. God is The all powerful Spirit who speaks creation into existence and shapes it by His will. He cannot create a god more powerful than He because He possesses all power already. This is not a limitation of God but rather a description of the infinite and all encompassing size of His power. |
1) Yet in Genesis it says God walks through the Garden of Eden and does other physical activities such as those.
2) Omnipotent \Om*nip"o*tent\, a. [F., fr.L. omnipotens, -entis; omnis all + potens powerful, potent. See Potent.]
1. Able in every respect and for every work; unlimited in ability; all-powerful; almighty; as, the Being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.
I don't see your claims anywhere in that definition.
3) I'd like you to prove that.
4) Yet Genesis seems to tell us that he does that very thing. (He made man man out of mud and woman from a rib even!)
5) Again, countless times in the Bible, God is used as a physical being.
Seeing you squirm is quite funny.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 3008
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
I have to give you credit. That was a good answer. But, so many innocent Egyptians had to live through the plagues. God could have just made pharaoh suffer without bringing his citizens into the picture. |
The same could be said for the inhabitants of every city that God destroyed. The thing is? All one has to do is look to Sodom. Remember Abraham's conversation with God. Abraham's concern was the same as yours. Last chance for Sodom was God sent Abraham and 2 angels to Lots house. The town showed up at Lot's door, and wouldn't listen. Lot and his family fled. Sodom destroyed. But Abraham asked specifically if any righteous people were left would God destroy the city...God said, No.
So, If God destroys a city of people, He has done all He can to get them to choose Him up to the point of making the choice for them. He cannot do that and retain free will. |
How come Lot was given these two angels, I might ask? When a riot comes to his door, he tells them, "Dont hurt my guest, but here is my daughter, do what you want with her, and know her!"... I hardly find this appropriate of God's apointed survior of Sodom and Gamora, and as Dawkin points out, a great example of man's play in writing the Bible (Which, I beleive its 100% man, but either way...), as men of this time basically thought that women were nothing but possesions (and even today we see that in Islamic culture)... wouldn't a truely godly man be beyond this?
_________________
"I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Make Myself Observed, I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Let Myself Be Heard..." - Seether, Out Of My Way
"Hold me now I need to feel complete...Like I matter to the one I need...I'm so afraid of the gift you give me...I don't belong here and I'm not well. I'm so ashamed of the lie I'm living, i'm right on the wrong side of it all...and I so ashamed of this...yes I am so ashamed of me" Seether - The Gift |
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Missionary
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Local time: 9:51 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | | redraiderdude187 wrote: | | I actually agree with the OP's assumption in a sense. Some atheists really like to talk about the illogical nature of the concept of "God" or gods. |
Yeah but to translate that into atheists being obsessed little crypto theists... this is the classic error of confusing theISM with theOS. There's a difference between considering God to be something others (theists) believe to exists and believing God to be something that you yourself believe to exist. There's a difference between taking an interrest in the existence of theism, and caring to be one yourself. But a believer anxious to pidgeonhole you as a crypto-theist doesn't see such a distinction.
I don't think that nontheists care about the existence of theism, not so much because the issue is unresolved, but rather because one's ideologies (religious or otherwise) determine how a person relates to him/herself and the world around them... they care about theism because it's friggin' rellevant. Rellevant and consequential. Mom refusing to attend her daughter's wedding because it's held in "the wrong church", homohatred spread by preachers, discouragement of condom use, the FCC cencoring TV content, evolution vs I.D., Van Gogh getting stabbed to death... the list goes on. |
Ideology is relative to environment; agreed. Religion is just as a convenient excuse to carry out ones plans for self-exultation as much as socialism, totalitarianism, fascism, cronyism, or memyselfandi-ism. By labeling oneself as atheist, as opposed to acronyist or afascist, one draws upon himself the subject of theism or theos and their argument for rejection. Therefore, I respectfully...reject your statement, "I don't think that nontheists care about the existence of theism" as illogical.  |
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Missionary
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Local time: 9:51 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
But if god is omniscient, it isn't really a test. He knows who will fail and who will pass. |
God's knowledge of future events does not compel a person to decide in agreement with God's will. It simply means that God's will (His ultimate plan and purpose) will come about just as He has determined. Therefore, any being who attempts to thwart or change the outcome of God's predetermined will is allowed to "try". Because God is all powerful and all knowing, all attempts fail. The "act of attempting" is allowed permissively. Yet, because all attempts result in failure, God's predetermined will prevails. The "propagators of attempts" (or persons attempting) to change the outcome of God's will, find themselves in opposition to God. God, in mercy and forgiveness, offers a full pardon for this transgression. The offer is free of strings attached yet fall under God's single Law of the Universe: Love in Obedience to the Creator.
[quote="Raggle Fraggle"] | Missionary wrote: | | God isn't offering a "Life Improvement Plan" or a "Better Life Seminar". God is offering eternal life in heaven where perfection shall rule forever. Where there will be no war, death, tears, pain, disease, or corruption or imperfection of any kind. This life is simply used as a weigh station for us to choose. |
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Does that mean that instead of going to hell, you just die? Because isn't hell eternal life, just in pain? |
All life created is eternal. It simply transfers from one dimension to another. The conservation of energy is possibly an example of such a concept. There are only two primary dimensions where life can exist eternally. In the presence of God or in the absence of God.
Because the Bible describes God as love, light, life peace, joy, merciful then to exist in His presence is to experience the purity of these elements( God's nature)
To exist separated from God's nature (absent from God's presence) would be to exist consciously and in infinite eternity (because of the law of conservation of energy) in the opposite of God's nature; ie. hate, darkness, death, unrest, sorrow, pitiless and unrepentance.
The biblical definition of death is "the absence of God's presence", thus Adam did die the moment he ate. His immediate death was spiritual, the corruption of sin in the flesh eventually brought physical death (separation from life). |
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Shiranu
WTF IS ME?!?!!!111!!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 3008
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
But if god is omniscient, it isn't really a test. He knows who will fail and who will pass. |
God's knowledge of future events does not compel a person to decide in agreement with God's will. It simply means that God's will (His ultimate plan and purpose) will come about just as He has determined. Therefore, any being who attempts to thwart or change the outcome of God's predetermined will is allowed to "try". Because God is all powerful and all knowing, all attempts fail. The "act of attempting" is allowed permissively. Yet, because all attempts result in failure, God's predetermined will prevails. The "propagators of attempts" (or persons attempting) to change the outcome of God's will, find themselves in opposition to God. God, in mercy and forgiveness, offers a full pardon for this transgression. The offer is free of strings attached yet fall under God's single Law of the Universe: Love in Obedience to the Creator.
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So, basically, we have no free will. Yes, we can try to do something contrary to his plan, but it will fail. Every thing will happen, exactly as he wants it to, despite any attempts to change it by mortals. You may consider that free will, but I dont, and really dont know how you can believe we have choice. Sure, you might get a superfical "Oh, I went left instead of right!" feeling, but you still wound up at the exact same location... once agian, how boring! 
_________________
"I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Make Myself Observed, I Cant Pass Up This Opportunity To Let Myself Be Heard..." - Seether, Out Of My Way
"Hold me now I need to feel complete...Like I matter to the one I need...I'm so afraid of the gift you give me...I don't belong here and I'm not well. I'm so ashamed of the lie I'm living, i'm right on the wrong side of it all...and I so ashamed of this...yes I am so ashamed of me" Seether - The Gift |
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romans120
Moderator
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 1982
Local time: 6:51 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Raskolnikov"] | Missionary wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: |
How is it predetermined? I determined before I determined? Nonsense. The problem here is your refusal to answer a simple question. Instead of answering honestly you decide to dodge it completely saying that the notion is only concieved in my imagination but through your own rhetoric you admit the inanities of the Christian God. Your logic is self defeating and it is quite hilarious. |
Okay...You want to know if an all powerful God can make a rock that He can't lift. Correct? Honestly, Your question is like asking, "what number is one more than infinity?"
1)First, the bible says that God is a Spirit. Sometimes the bible says something like "the hand of God" or "His strong right arm" However, God does not have physical limbs. He is a Spirit.
2)God is all powerful. We call this omnipotence. Omnipotence (by definition) does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail.
3) Therefore God possesses "all" power (every bit of it...there is none left to possess). This "power" is not intended to indicate or portray that God is similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is not working out or anything. Neither are there physical attributes used to lift, stand, or run.
4) God "speaks" matter into existence and by His will the universe is shaped. God is not working at a pottery table with clay and building a diorama or hotrod model.
5) Because 1-4 is true? The question is illogical. God is The all powerful Spirit who speaks creation into existence and shapes it by His will. He cannot create a god more powerful than He because He possesses all power already. This is not a limitation of God but rather a description of the infinite and all encompassing size of His power. |
| Quote: |
1) Yet in Genesis it says God walks through the Garden of Eden and does other physical activities such as those. |
these could be anthropomorphism's or manifestations of theophoney's nothing in the text makes any claim to God's make up you are reading that into the text
| Quote: |
2) Omnipotent \Om*nip"o*tent\, a. [F., fr.L. omnipotens, -entis; omnis all + potens powerful, potent. See Potent.]
1. Able in every respect and for every work; unlimited in ability; all-powerful; almighty; as, the Being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.
I don't see your claims anywhere in that definition. |
While I agree I would not have worded it the way missionary did the point he was making is that omni-potence does not imply the nonsensical ability to do things that are contradictory. Those things only exists in the realm of rhetoric. If such a rock exists God is not omnipotent, since no such rock exists God is omnipotent, God has the power to keep such a rock from existing God will remain omnipotent.
| Quote: |
3) I'd like you to prove that. |
Its not his to prove it is God's claim of Himself in scripture. Again I think I personally think slightly different in that God can manifest his power by lifting, standing or running but is not limited to those things, omnipotence means nothing is beyond Gods power
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4) Yet Genesis seems to tell us that he does that very thing. (He made man man out of mud and woman from a rib even!) |
He also spoke energy into existence, sometime Jesus healed with a word sometimes He used objects. God is not limited to pottery type creation but He can create that way
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5) Again, countless times in the Bible, God is used as a physical being. |
But God is never limited to a physical being in scripture
| Quote: | | Seeing you squirm is quite funny. |
I don't think he's squirming, its you who is out on a limb with this type of argument. In order for rock conundrum to have meaning you must prove there is a real omnipotent rock someplace, feel free to go look for it
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23062
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Omnipotence DOES equal self-contradiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
The point being that "God cannot fail". God failed to keep Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge (or was it Prometheus that gave humans knowledge? i can never keep theist fairy tales apart). God failed to create a loyal host of angels. god failed to create a world of moral people... to the point where he had to kill everyone and basically start over. oops.
God said jesus would be back in their generation... its been 2,000 years. oops.
and, today, god wants people to believe in him... and yet secularism has been on the rise since the end of the Dark Ages.
God created an entire universe for the sole purpose of being worshiped and praised FOR creating the universe... yet, he has utterly failed to convince the people looking at the universe that it was created by any intelligent entity whatsoever.
God wants me to believe in him? i do not. god has failed yet again.
as a matter of fact, show me ONE thing that God can be proven to have SUCCEEDED at.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Missionary
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Local time: 9:51 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Citizen X wrote: |
And what would this information tell me? Perhaps that your mind works the same, or in a similar manner, as other religious minded folks. Would it prove you to be delusional? No. Is it necessary to prove that you are delusional? No, it is not. There is ample evidence to dispute the validity of Christianity. Which, by fault, disputes the validity of the Christian Jesus. If there is a god, god is not the Christian Jesus, the Muslim Allah, or the Jewish Jehovah. Your perception of god is completely based on what you had been taught god was. No one needs to conduct any tests on you to make that determination. You choose to believe in Jesus as fervently as you do because you have been brainwashed to accept the divinity of Jesus over the divinity of other gods that are accepted worldwide.
You do not claim to have all of the answers, yet you are so certain about the answer of Jesus being god, because 13 years ago, the divinity of Jesus was revealed to you. I suggest looking back at that moment. Was it a dream? Was it an emotion at a religious service? Were you "filled with the Holy Spirit" at a moment in your life when things were down? Who was feeding you info about god at the time? Were they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christians, or affiliates of some other religion? How many religions had you studied or learned from prior to having this revelation? And if you had studied other religions, were you becoming educated through a secular teacher or through a Christian or some other religious affiliate? I would venture to say that your entire life has been predominantly surrounded by Christianity.
If Jesus is truly god, then asking these questions should not hinder your faith. If Jesus truly is god, there should be a logical explanation to each of these questions. If Jesus truly is god, you should be able to truly study the history of Christianity and mankind without finding any evidence disputing the divinity of Jesus. I've asked these questions, and I have studied both the history of Christianity and mankind. I would suggest that you do the same. You have nothing to lose, if Jesus is truly god. But, I doubt that you will question or study anything, since, you, who have proclaimed to not have all of the answers, is confident that you have the answer to the one question regarding who god is. And your basing that answer on an experience that happened in a region of the world that typically expresses only one viewpoint regarding the identity of their conceived deity.
Like it or not, you are delusional. |
You made a statement of fact concerning me (personally neither whom you have ever met nor know) and my testimony (objective and realist to my experience-subjective and relative to your acceptance of said testimony). Your challenge is stated as such "Prove me wrong".
My response is that your statement is entirely speculative opinion and conjecture based on predisposition, presupposition, and assumption in addition to your lack of data collected and interpreted through the filter of the scientific method and further more fails to provide empirical evidence which has been peer reviewed. Therefore your statement of fact is refuted as unsupported, undocumented, unprofessional, unscientific and as a result is simply relegated to the distant nether regions as:
The Musings of a Bitter Atheist . |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
there is no proof for god. and, in fact, as far as your particular religion goes, we have scientific, observable and testable data that directly contradicts those claims about the world, the universe and reality.
There is no evidence for god. there is plenty of evidence thats runs contra to the claims about god that people have made.
therefore, it is a reasonable conclusions that god does not exist.
I don;t care about a person's delusional 'feelings' or 'revelations'. i care about facts. care about reality. i care about proof. i care about the truth.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | Missionary wrote: | Quote: | | Just to clarify...Are you saying that you had expected physical powers to throw mountains into the sea? And when you didn't receive them you walked away? |
No sir, I did not expect physical powers, the bible did not promise physical powers it does however promise that nothing will be impossible to the believer, and yet not one mountain has moved since, the bible promises prayers will be answered to your liking as well. "whatever you ask in prayer while believing you SHALL recieve". Nothing intrepretive about that. The only certainty is either prayers don't get answered or people when faced with life threatening situations oddly pray for death, apparently, since they end up dying. |
The religious man's concept of prayer is, "That which I deem to be a benefit should also be deemed by God to be benefit". In other words, man has the idea that God agrees and capitulates to man's superior wisdom for the universe and things of an eternal nature. Man's corrupted desires seek a genie in a bottle that delivers upon demand. Even in the case of "morally pious" requests, the corruption of the request is most often self serving.
God's concept of prayer, can be found in the model as presented by Jesus. I won't copy/paste and be held responsible for inciting riot here. However, the Lord's Prayer is entirely focused upon acknowledgment of God, praise and worship for God, and support of God's eternal purposed will in the universe. The only two requests for self are for sustenance(daily bread) and forgiveness.
Jesus further demonstrates this prayerful position before God in His wilderness temptation of Matt 4. Man shall live by the Word of God (vs.4); shall not tempt(provoke) God(vs.7); but shall worship and serve Him alone (vs.10).
God's will is unlimited other than by that which God wills. Therefore if man requests that which is outside of God's will that request is not of God, but of man. The purpose of prayer is relationship and submission to God's will. As a result of the closeness and intimacy with God, the believer becomes aware of and agrees with God's will and thus prays for it. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
there is no proof for god. and, in fact, as far as your particular religion goes, we have scientific, observable and testable data that directly contradicts those claims about the world, the universe and reality.
There is no evidence for god. there is plenty of evidence thats runs contra to the claims about god that people have made.
therefore, it is a reasonable conclusions that god does not exist.
I don;t care about a person's delusional 'feelings' or 'revelations'. i care about facts. care about reality. i care about proof. i care about the truth. |
I have to say I find this funny coming from someone who lives playing "virtual world games", sorry, carry on
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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all of that to simply say "prayer is meaningless".
how does god make his will known? how does he press it upon reality? is it detectable? testable? can you PROVE that something happened because of prayer?
if not, then it is a meaningless concept. all of that time spend on your knees, eyes closed and hands clasped could have been better spent, on your feet, hands busy to make better whatever situation you're concerned enough to PRAY about, but not really mature enough to actually DO anything about.
"A single pair of hands working accomplish more good than a billion clasped in prayer".
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | Omnipotence DOES equal self-contradiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
The point being that "God cannot fail". God failed to keep Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge (or was it Prometheus that gave humans knowledge? i can never keep theist fairy tales apart). God failed to create a loyal host of angels. god failed to create a world of moral people... to the point where he had to kill everyone and basically start over. oops.
God said jesus would be back in their generation... its been 2,000 years. oops.
and, today, god wants people to believe in him... and yet secularism has been on the rise since the end of the Dark Ages.
God created an entire universe for the sole purpose of being worshiped and praised FOR creating the universe... yet, he has utterly failed to convince the people looking at the universe that it was created by any intelligent entity whatsoever.
God wants me to believe in him? i do not. god has failed yet again.
as a matter of fact, show me ONE thing that God can be proven to have SUCCEEDED at. |
Oh I didn't realize wikki made a determination on this issue I will forth with modify my views in concordance with it. ...... It commits the same fallacy that Rasko does. If nothing is more powerful then God the God is omnipotent. If nothing is more powerful then God then nothing is powerful enough to limit God's power. That is not a paradox.
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23062
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
there is no proof for god. and, in fact, as far as your particular religion goes, we have scientific, observable and testable data that directly contradicts those claims about the world, the universe and reality.
There is no evidence for god. there is plenty of evidence thats runs contra to the claims about god that people have made.
therefore, it is a reasonable conclusions that god does not exist.
I don;t care about a person's delusional 'feelings' or 'revelations'. i care about facts. care about reality. i care about proof. i care about the truth. |
I have to say I find this funny coming from someone who lives playing "virtual world games", sorry, carry on |
i find it funny that *I* can tell the difference between a game and reality and you cant.
thats why religious types have always hated D&D, i think... when D&D players talk about healing the sick and blind, curing wounds, fire-breathing dragons, demons, turning sticks into snakes, walking on water, transmuting liquids, flying and other such nonsense, we KNOW ITS NOT REAL. However, theists actually think the world is some fucked up D&D game in which magic and angels and devils really exist. scary and delusional.
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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