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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 7:43 PM
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Actually, the logically impossible is also metaphysically impossible. |
| Philosophos wrote: | Yes - in the sense that we may refer to metaphysically extant entities.
The root, however, lies with our meanings, not with metaphysics. |
Don't give me any of that postmodern bullshit.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 9:43 PM
Location: Where Scum Are
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Quote: | | The root, however, lies with our meanings, not with metaphysics. |
Don't give me any of that postmodern bullshit. |
I'm giving you strict logical criteria. No postmodernism here.
Bitch.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 9:43 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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You're both bitches now simmer down!
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"Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
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Zocrates
I rank, therefore I am
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 2248
Local time: 8:43 PM
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Missionary.....
Is there any way you can know that the voices you hear isn't a delusion? Hoe do you know you're not crazy? After all, crazy people talk to themselves and claim to hear people talking to them. How are you to be trusted as non-looney? How can we separate you from the crazies?
Are we just supposed to trust your word?
_________________
"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." - F.M. Knowles
"We only fear things in proportion to our ignorance of them" - Titus Livius
"Ain't nothin to it but to do it!" -Martin Payne |
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pr126
resident misanthrope
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8645
Local time: 1:43 AM
Location: Londonistan
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Lucifer is innocent. He was framed. It's was a character assassination.
Free Lucifer now! (Demo at City Hall 2 PM sharp).
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“The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.” - Ayn Rand |
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moog
Forum Plebian
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 245
Local time: 1:43 AM
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Re: The Atheist's Obsession With God |
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| Missionary wrote: |
Without attempting to project, I understand you to be saying 'you don't care about the vast and various god and/or gods(plural) and don't overly care about believers'.
Cool  What about if it's God who cares about you? |
Is this a serious question?
A fictional being cares about me? How nice.
But no doubt this fantasy god will want to torture me for all eternity if I fail to believe in him?
Hmmm.
What would you think if someone told you that Yoda cared for you? |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6674
Local time: 2:43 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | I actually agree with the OP's assumption in a sense. Some atheists really like to talk about the illogical nature of the concept of "God" or gods. |
Yeah but to translate that into atheists being obsessed little crypto theists... this is the classic error of confusing theISM with theOS. There's a difference between considering God to be something others (theists) believe to exists and believing God to be something that you yourself believe to exist. There's a difference between taking an interrest in the existence of theism, and caring to be one yourself. But a believer anxious to pidgeonhole you as a crypto-theist doesn't see such a distinction.
I don't think that nontheists care about the existence of theism, not so much because the issue is unresolved, but rather because one's ideologies (religious or otherwise) determine how a person relates to him/herself and the world around them... they care about theism because it's friggin' rellevant. Rellevant and consequential. Mom refusing to attend her daughter's wedding because it's held in "the wrong church", homohatred spread by preachers, discouragement of condom use, the FCC cencoring TV content, evolution vs I.D., Van Gogh getting stabbed to death... the list goes on.
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~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Raggle Fraggle
Smells Chiiiicken
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 1029
Local time: 9:43 PM
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
Why doesn't god just kill Satan? You know? Stop the virus at its source instead of making the infected suffer. |
He will [Rev 20] The purpose of all this is a choice. It most likely has to do with Lucifer's choice to rebel in the first place. |
God could have stopped Satan instead of allow him to corrupt humanity. He had the knowledge and the power. It's that simple. |
All we know from scripture is that something happened in heaven. Lucifer rebelled. He along with 1/3 of the angels got tossed out. We also have a conversation in the book of Job where Lucifer challenges God that the only reason Job is faithful is because God has blessed Job. Lucifer suggests that if God removes the blessing, Job will curse God.
From that, theologians speculate(because it's not spelled out in the bible) that the war in heaven had to do with something along these lines. That the only reason the angels obey is because they see God, hear Him, know He creates, know His power. They suggest that Lucifer proposes to God that if the angels had a true choice of free will to decide between good and evil, sin or obedience, that they would choose sin. Thus earth was created to set up the circumstances where a choice could be made. Man chose sin. Satan thinks he won the bet. But God is merciful and offers a complete pardon if man chooses by faith. Now the war is over the sould of men. The choices have to made. This temporary life is simply a waiting room we use to choose. Eternal life will begin once all the choices are made. Death, sin, lucifer, hell will all be destroyed after the judgment. Eternal life will be free from evil and everyone in heaven will be there because they wanted to be there by free will choice. |
But if god is omniscient, it isn't really a test. He knows who will fail and who will pass.
| Missionary wrote: | | God isn't offering a "Life Improvement Plan" or a "Better Life Seminar". God is offering eternal life in heaven where perfection shall rule forever. Where there will be no war, death, tears, pain, disease, or corruption or imperfection of any kind. This life is simply used as a weigh station for us to choose. |
Does that mean that instead of going to hell, you just die? Because isn't hell eternal life, just in pain?
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Could you repeat that? I think I had something crazy in my ear. |
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Citizen X
Forum Plebian
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 185
Local time: 8:43 PM
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Citizen X wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Azrael wrote: |
I can't speak for him, but I'm not my god. I'm my own master in some respects, I generally do what I want to if I'm free to do it, but to say that I'm my own god is ridiculous. I don't worship myself, and to assume that atheists worship themselves is idiotic. Some do (LeVeyan Satanists I think would be an example of this, since they don't really believe in Satan or God), but a lot don't. |
I don't mean that you build an alter to yourself and slaughter sheep. You said, "I'm my own master in some respects, I generally do what I want to if I'm free to do it" is essentially the same thing. You consider you first above all others. Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying you're a self centered jerk, I'm saying that people tend to answer to no man and no god but blaze the path of their own destiny themselves. This is in stark contrast to someone like myself who is guided and directed step by step of God. |
Correction. You are guided and directed, step by step, by what you perceive to be god. The problem is, it's all in your head. Your revelation of god wasn't revealed to you by god. Your revelation of god was revealed to you by your own doing, in your own head, and completely based on the pre-conceived knowledge of what the people around you have accepted to be their god. You have received no enlightenment. You have gained no "real" knowledge. You have simply accepted the beliefs of those around you by assuming certain emotions, dreams, and feelings that you have experienced was this god that they told you about. Prove me wrong. |
You have not collected CAT scans, MRI's, chemical analysis of my brain, measured electrical impulses, observed, verified, prepared a model, tested your model, or formed a control group and conducted a double blind test. So at best you have a weak opening statement for an abstract. |
And what would this information tell me? Perhaps that your mind works the same, or in a similar manner, as other religious minded folks. Would it prove you to be delusional? No. Is it necessary to prove that you are delusional? No, it is not. There is ample evidence to dispute the validity of Christianity. Which, by fault, disputes the validity of the Christian Jesus. If there is a god, god is not the Christian Jesus, the Muslim Allah, or the Jewish Jehovah. Your perception of god is completely based on what you had been taught god was. No one needs to conduct any tests on you to make that determination. You choose to believe in Jesus as fervently as you do because you have been brainwashed to accept the divinity of Jesus over the divinity of other gods that are accepted worldwide.
You do not claim to have all of the answers, yet you are so certain about the answer of Jesus being god, because 13 years ago, the divinity of Jesus was revealed to you. I suggest looking back at that moment. Was it a dream? Was it an emotion at a religious service? Were you "filled with the Holy Spirit" at a moment in your life when things were down? Who was feeding you info about god at the time? Were they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christians, or affiliates of some other religion? How many religions had you studied or learned from prior to having this revelation? And if you had studied other religions, were you becoming educated through a secular teacher or through a Christian or some other religious affiliate? I would venture to say that your entire life has been predominantly surrounded by Christianity.
If Jesus is truly god, then asking these questions should not hinder your faith. If Jesus truly is god, there should be a logical explanation to each of these questions. If Jesus truly is god, you should be able to truly study the history of Christianity and mankind without finding any evidence disputing the divinity of Jesus. I've asked these questions, and I have studied both the history of Christianity and mankind. I would suggest that you do the same. You have nothing to lose, if Jesus is truly god. But, I doubt that you will question or study anything, since, you, who have proclaimed to not have all of the answers, is confident that you have the answer to the one question regarding who god is. And your basing that answer on an experience that happened in a region of the world that typically expresses only one viewpoint regarding the identity of their conceived deity.
Like it or not, you are delusional.
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He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion, atrocities done in his name |
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aitm
using the thinker thingy
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 1278
Local time: 8:43 PM
Location: Melbourne, Fl
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Missionary wrote: | Quote: | | Just to clarify...Are you saying that you had expected physical powers to throw mountains into the sea? And when you didn't receive them you walked away? |
No sir, I did not expect physical powers, the bible did not promise physical powers it does however promise that nothing will be impossible to the believer, and yet not one mountain has moved since, the bible promises prayers will be answered to your liking as well. "whatever you ask in prayer while believing you SHALL recieve". Nothing intrepretive about that. The only certainty is either prayers don't get answered or people when faced with life threatening situations oddly pray for death, apparently, since they end up dying.
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Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 11:43 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zocrates wrote: | Mr. Missionary.....
Is there any way you can know that the voices you hear isn't a delusion? Hoe do you know you're not crazy? After all, crazy people talk to themselves and claim to hear people talking to them. How are you to be trusted as non-looney? How can we separate you from the crazies?
Are we just supposed to trust your word? |
No, in fact it's imperative that you refuse to trust me. Likewise the priest, the preacher, the church, the university, the scientist, the science, the institution of man or the man of institution.
Trust God alone. |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 11:43 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| pr126 wrote: | Lucifer is innocent. He was framed. It's was a character assassination.
Free Lucifer now! (Demo at City Hall 2 PM sharp). |
The three greatest lies ever told are:
1) That Satan does not exist.
2) That religion is the way to God.
3) Since religion has failed, there is no God. |
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3996
Local time: 1:43 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Basically as Missionary describes it, the whole thing is ultimately based on a very personal experience of revelation that cannot be communicated in any meaningfull sense to a third party, and the rest eminates from there, including all the specifics of a rather unwieldy cosmology / theology. It's all familiar terrain really
Gerard
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The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 2051
Local time: 7:43 PM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| caseagainstfaith wrote: | | Get the banhammer out. |
look, he has had the decency to take you guys on and has received condescension yet he has kept his cool. Are you really so sensitive that him projecting a little is going to make you lose your cool. Since, I have been around to date he has been by far been the most able theistic debater. Even if you don't agree with him there is lots to be learned. Why don't you let by gones be by gones and challenge him to a one on one on a topic of a atheistic argument you are passionate about. I would be uber interested in such a debate
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 11:43 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Re: The Atheist's Obsession With God |
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| moog wrote: | | Missionary wrote: |
Without attempting to project, I understand you to be saying 'you don't care about the vast and various god and/or gods(plural) and don't overly care about believers'.
Cool What about if it's God who cares about you? |
Is this a serious question?
A fictional being cares about me? How nice.
But no doubt this fantasy god will want to torture me for all eternity if I fail to believe in him?
Hmmm.
What would you think if someone told you that Yoda cared for you? |
Something to consider strictly from a logical academic studies pov. If there was a God that was a meddling deity, as opposed to the indifferent deist variety, we could assume the meddling to originate 1) from the foundation of the creative event; [and] 2) with consistency in meddling in that the deity meddles in all that is created.
IF:
P1) Countinuous meddling
P2) Consitent meddling
C) Because P1 and P2 are true, therefore meddling is Persistent.
a. Persistent meddling would originate and be historically known by earliest recorded human data.
b. Because meddling is continuous, recording of data would not cease.
c. Because meddling is consistent, data would correlate.
d. Because meddling is continuous, consistent, and persistent such meddling would be threaded throughout human history without interruption and existing from origin of creation to today.
e. All posers of meddling, myths, inventions or imagination, traditions, would be identified as such or cease to be considered as candidates altogether.
Based on the above...
Candidates Include:
Hinduism-oldest religion known to still exist
Judaism as originating in oral tradition, brought out of Mesopotamia by Abraham
Christianity as extension through fulfillment of Judaism's prophecies
Islam as Divine Redefinition of Judeo-Christianity
EDIT: Derivatives of Baal/Baphemet
Candidates Dismissed:
Yoda |
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