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Godless Red Scum
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist? |
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Seriously. The question doesn't necessarily mean a socialist who's ideas you are fond of, it could mean a socialist activist who's actions you respected or a socialist theorist who's writings you find intellectually intriguing, even if you disagree with them. For an example on the other side-- I disagree with Rothbard, but I do enjoy the things I've read by him, and I certainly respect some of the actions of some of the capitalists during the American and French Revolutions, as well as the American Civil War.
P.S. I suppose you don't have to be an an-cap or Libertarian to answer the question. Just someone who's not a socialist. Also, I include in "socialist", left anarchists like Proudhon and Bakunin. |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | Seriously. The question doesn't necessarily mean a socialist who's ideas you are fond of, it could mean a socialist activist who's actions you respected or a socialist theorist who's writings you find intellectually intriguing, even if you disagree with them. For an example on the other side-- I disagree with Rothbard, but I do enjoy the things I've read by him, and I certainly respect some of the actions of some of the capitalists during the American and French Revolutions, as well as the American Civil War.
P.S. I suppose you don't have to be an an-cap or Libertarian to answer the question. Just someone who's not a socialist. Also, I include in "socialist", left anarchists like Proudhon and Bakunin. |
Quoting for those who may have you on ignore.
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | Seriously. The question doesn't necessarily mean a socialist who's ideas you are fond of, it could mean a socialist activist who's actions you respected or a socialist theorist who's writings you find intellectually intriguing, even if you disagree with them. For an example on the other side-- I disagree with Rothbard, but I do enjoy the things I've read by him, and I certainly respect some of the actions of some of the capitalists during the American and French Revolutions, as well as the American Civil War.
P.S. I suppose you don't have to be an an-cap or Libertarian to answer the question. Just someone who's not a socialist. Also, I include in "socialist", left anarchists like Proudhon and Bakunin. |
Quoting for those who may have you on ignore. |
Oh, now who would have me on ignore? I'm such a personable fellow. |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Quote: | | P.S. I suppose you don't have to be an an-cap or Libertarian to answer the question. Just someone who's not a socialist. Also, I include in "socialist", left anarchists like Proudhon and Bakunin. |
In this case, does Konkin count?
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | | You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post. |
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | ChrissyFos wrote: | | You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post. |
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If you don't have me on ignore by now, then you don't know what you're missing.
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Interesting question. I like the question, but at the same time I feel that you are asking me to choose between a hammer or a brick wall to give myself a headache with.
I read a short book by Galbraith once on Economic Development. I did like his novel idea that before any serious economic growth can take place, a society needs well defined property laws and absence of corruption via a working judicial system. I think it is fundamental and a requirement for a working economy mitigate corruption along with well defined property laws.
Despite Galbraith's accomplishments, he always held to the collective. The collective does not have a history of working, unless it is voluntary. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | Quote: | | P.S. I suppose you don't have to be an an-cap or Libertarian to answer the question. Just someone who's not a socialist. Also, I include in "socialist", left anarchists like Proudhon and Bakunin. |
In this case, does Konkin count? |
I would say no. Anarchists who would "count" would be those with a more or less socialist orientation regarding the economy. Proudhon's "mutualism" for example, was much closer to a free-market model than a Marxist model, however Proudhon also rejected property rights (he didn't believe in collective property, nor did he believe labor creates property, nor did he make a private property vs. personal property distinction, rather he believed there was no right to property at all beyond mere possession). So although he sounded like an anarcho-capitalist at times (he argued taxes were theft and that "progressive" tax was more unjust than a flat tax), he explicitly rejected the capitalist model and the primary basis of it (property rights). I'm not that familiar with agorism, but from what I know it does not advocate a socialist economic model of any sort. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | Interesting question. I like the question, but at the same time I feel that you are asking me to choose between a hammer or a brick wall to give myself a headache with.
I read a short book by Galbraith once on Economic Development. I did like his novel idea that before any serious economic growth can take place, a society needs well defined property laws and absence of corruption via a working judicial system. I think it is fundamental and a requirement for a working economy mitigate corruption along with well defined property laws.
Despite Galbraith's accomplishments, he always held to the collective. The collective does not have a history of working, unless it is voluntary. |
Dunno that I would call Galbraith a socialist. Maybe socialist-leaning, but he didn't call for an end to private ownership of the means of production or the abolition of the wage system as far as I know. |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | I would say no. |
Damn.
It's a tough call then... I dunno, I recall a few quotes by Proudhon, and he seemed quite cool, but to be honest I'm not that well read in the subject at all.
| Quote: | | I'm not that familiar with agorism, but from what I know it does not advocate a socialist economic model of any sort. |
Yeah I guess, tough it's not their economic system that I like (assuming they have one, one agorist I bumped into kept talking about hyper-entrepreneurship, tough I don't know if this is an official part of agorism), but the idea of counter-economics.
Konkin could be an outright commie, if he advocated counter-economics as means of achieving his goals, and I'd still kiss him and cuddle and call him George.
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Dunno that I would call Galbraith a socialist. Maybe socialist-leaning, but he didn't call for an end to private ownership of the means of production or the abolition of the wage system as far as I know. |
He was an Institutionalist with very strong socialistic leanings. I do respect many Institutionalists, like those of Veblen, Dewey, and Pierce. There are some similarities to socialism, but there is also some contrasts.
Socialism is a wide spectrum. Would you classify Benjamin Tucker as a socialist?
Let me ask you, who do you admire? Then I can tell which ideas I agree with. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: an-caps and Libertarians-- who's your favorite socialist |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | I would say no. |
Damn.
It's a tough call then... I dunno, I recall a few quotes by Proudhon, and he seemed quite cool, but to be honest I'm not that well read in the subject at all.
| Quote: | | I'm not that familiar with agorism, but from what I know it does not advocate a socialist economic model of any sort. |
Yeah I guess, tough it's not their economic system that I like (assuming they have one, one agorist I bumped into kept talking about hyper-entrepreneurship, tough I don't know if this is an official part of agorism), but the idea of counter-economics.
Konkin could be an outright commie, if he advocated counter-economics as means of achieving his goals, and I'd still kiss him and cuddle and call him George. |
The FARC are commies who use counter-economics. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | Dunno that I would call Galbraith a socialist. Maybe socialist-leaning, but he didn't call for an end to private ownership of the means of production or the abolition of the wage system as far as I know. |
He was an Institutionalist with very strong socialistic leanings. I do respect many Institutionalists, like those of Veblen, Dewey, and Pierce. There are some similarities to socialism, but there is also some contrasts.
Socialism is a wide spectrum. Would you classify Benjamin Tucker as a socialist?
Let me ask you, who do you admire? Then I can tell which ideas I agree with. |
No, Tucker was not a socialist in my opinion. His ideas were much closer to anarcho-capitalism than to socialist anarchism. If Proudhon straddled the line between individualist/free-market anarchism and socialist anarchism, Tucker was firmly on the individualist side of the line.
Who I admire should be irrelevant to the question, but I'll give it some thought and maybe get back to you. Who I admire is not entirely based on their ideas, a lot of it is based on action. For example, I may respect Krotopkin, but I admire Mahkno. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | .Who I admire should be irrelevant to the question, |
You asked a very interesting question. I am trying to engage in conversation by asking a socialist who he believes in.
| Quote: | | but I'll give it some thought and maybe get back to you. Who I admire is not entirely based on their ideas, a lot of it is based on action. For example, I may respect Krotopkin, but I admire Mahkno. |
Express their ideas (I cannot debate against dead people). |
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redraiderdude187
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't call myself a socialist, but recently, I have developed a more socialist slant to my politics.
I would have to say my favorite would be a tie between Noam Chomsky and Bakunin.
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