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caseagainstfaith
God's gift to atheism
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Posts: 3564
Local time: 8:27 PM
Location: Houston, TX USA
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Missionary's right in this case, Rask. The "rock conundrum" is nonsense. |
I don't usually use the rock conundrum myself, for I know the usual response. But, I happen to think it is more valid than you think. Its related to the idea of, can God do the logically impossible? Can God create a square circle? If not, then God has limits. Where do these limits come from? And, if there are limits that not even God can cross, doesn't that violate arguments that God is necessary to set the limits? If there are limits to God, why call him God?
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Please visit my site at www.caseagainstfaith.com featuring critiques of Lee Strobel and other apologetics
Check out my InfidelGuy interviews, tapes 117 and 269 |
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caseagainstfaith
God's gift to atheism
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Posts: 3564
Local time: 8:27 PM
Location: Houston, TX USA
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: |
You have not collected CAT scans, MRI's, chemical analysis of my brain, measured electrical impulses, observed, verified, prepared a model, tested your model, or formed a control group and conducted a double blind test. So at best you have a weak opening statement for an abstract.  |
Neither have you. You demand more than you are willing to give.
_________________
Please visit my site at www.caseagainstfaith.com featuring critiques of Lee Strobel and other apologetics
Check out my InfidelGuy interviews, tapes 117 and 269 |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 6:27 AM
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggle Fraggle wrote: |
I have to give you credit. That was a good answer. But, so many innocent Egyptians had to live through the plagues. God could have just made pharaoh suffer without bringing his citizens into the picture. |
The same could be said for the inhabitants of every city that God destroyed. The thing is? All one has to do is look to Sodom. Remember Abraham's conversation with God. Abraham's concern was the same as yours. Last chance for Sodom was God sent Abraham and 2 angels to Lots house. The town showed up at Lot's door, and wouldn't listen. Lot and his family fled. Sodom destroyed. But Abraham asked specifically if any righteous people were left would God destroy the city...God said, No.
So, If God destroys a city of people, He has done all He can to get them to choose Him up to the point of making the choice for them. He cannot do that and retain free will. |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 4:27 PM
Location: Where Scum Are
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| caseagainstfaith wrote: | | I don't usually use the rock conundrum myself, for I know the usual response. But, I happen to think it is more valid than you think. Its related to the idea of, can God do the logically impossible? Can God create a square circle? If not, then God has limits. |
That's absolutely not the case. The square-circle/rock stuff is a referrent that YOU are making. It has nothing to do with God.
I'll explain it in more detail if you like. But the upshot of it is this: logic relates the truth values of propositions to one another. It does not "limit" anything in reality.
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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Zocrates
I rank, therefore I am
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 2248
Local time: 3:27 PM
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | And how do you know everything about this god of yours, Missionary? How would someone with not as much knowledge as you gain such all-encompassing knowledge of this god of yours? |
There's only one way...to meet Him. He will contact you when you're ready. When He does? Remember to choose wisely. |
What is this vague "easy escape" answer you guys keep giving me? "He will contact you when you're ready" is the biggest escape clause known to man.......it implies that he has not contacted me because I'm "not ready". In other words, all the people that have not been contacted by god have something that THEY are not doing in order to hear from god.
I'm so sick of hearing this garbage of placing the blame on the non-believer because they have not heard from god. At this point it's highly likely that you're convincing yourself that he talks to you because: A) you can't provide evidence of his existence and B) you continue to blame non-believers rather than blame god for why no communication has taken place......seems very indicative of a mental fabrication on your part.
_________________
"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." - F.M. Knowles
"We only fear things in proportion to our ignorance of them" - Titus Livius
"Ain't nothin to it but to do it!" -Martin Payne |
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 4:27 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | SpecterOpacus wrote: |
Are you fucking stupid?
There have been countless of murders done in the name of religion. It still happens today with Islam. People are DYING due to fucking FAIRY TALES, and you are adding onto the disease that has spread all over this world. You will say your religion of love but it does nothing but to promote hatred for those who do not follow your imaginary fucking man in the sky. Wake the fuck up and realize that there is NOTHING your religion has to offer to humanity that cannot be replicated in other schools of thought without believing in a genocidal, hate-mongering, baby-killing, megalomaniac.
My only regret is that I won't be around to see the fall of Christianity and bathe in the glory of it. |
Well, I'll say this...you're very passionate about hate. I suggest to you that your hate is justified but misdirected. God hates sin and the affects that sin produces. Your hate is misplaced in that ultimately you blame God and side with mankind. That's very, very common. |
I am not mad at God, you fucktard. I am mad at people like you who seem to follow this belief without flinching.
Edit: This is fucking lame. The dude is arguing/proselytizing at the same time. You want to keep him around as a punching bag for your arguments, and at the same time he is preaching his nonsensical drivel all over the forums like a dog drooling all over your sofa.
Same shit, different person, more preaching.
| Missionary wrote: | | God wants us to HATE sin and the affects of sin. But man has come to HATE each other and God. This kind of hate is from Lucifer. He will be destroyed in the end. So will death, disease, and sin forever. |
God knew about Lucifer ahead of time.
God took no action to stop that.
God can at any time destroy Lucifer if he so wishes.
God does not.
God is evil.
_________________
"Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 6:27 AM
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Amberli wrote: | | I just don't understand why someone would choose to have another dictate his life. Be it another person, or a deity, you are still placing yourself under someone else's "rule". Why do that? |
Because the Creator of life knows all. Why would I not submit myself to the One who is all knowing? One thing I know for certain...I don't have many answers for resolving the problems of the universe nor do I have the power to create a seed, orn egg, or a living cell. But He has all power and all knowledge. I want to be with Him.
| Quote: | | Do you not have confidence in yourself, and your ability to live a good, moral life? |
Man's morals are subjective from one person to the next because they are centered on self desire and lust for power, fame, fortune. Hitler had morals but the don't square with your morals which don't square with God's. God is pure in every aspect. Therfore no imperfection corrupts His very nature of moral perfection.
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Must you restrain yourself from immorality by following some...thing? Do you honestly believe that a god, such as you "worship", really takes the time to change your life? Or mine? Or that he will send us to a flaming pit for eternity if we do not kiss his feet, and belittle ourselves and fellow humans in his name on a regular basis? |
God isn't offering a "Life Improvement Plan" or a "Better Life Seminar". God is offering eternal life in heaven where perfection shall rule forever. Where there will be no war, death, tears, pain, disease, or corruption or imperfection of any kind. This life is simply used as a weigh station for us to choose.
| Quote: | | I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would subject themselves to this kind of eternal dominion..with absolutely no assurance that it was even real. |
I didn't know it was real either until I met Jesus and He gave me His Holy Spirit who then conferred or infused truth so that I was able to know with 100% certanty that what He was telling me was true. I don't expect you to believe me. I simply proclaim what has happened so that when God calls you, you will know that it is Him. He will give you the same Holy Spirit the He gave me, then you will know as I do.
That's why others will show up here from time to time and tell you they learned the truth. It's not a matter of reading and studying...it's a matter of receiving truth directly from God. That's when you know. |
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 4:27 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | I didn't know it was real either until I met Jesus and He gave me His Holy Spirit who then conferred or infused truth so that I was able to know with 100% certanty that what He was telling me was true. I don't expect you to believe me. I simply proclaim what has happened so that when God calls you, you will know that it is Him. He will give you the same Holy Spirit the He gave me, then you will know as I do. |
_________________
"Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 6:27 AM
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bardolph86 wrote: | | Could god have created a world in which everybody knew Jesus as their savior before dying? |
Most likely only by force. The odds are some will chose evil over good if given a genuine choice where they are not impeded from choosing. You have to admit, sin is fun.... Or, so it seems. Look at the world. The world likes to party. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 2:27 PM
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| caseagainstfaith wrote: | | I don't usually use the rock conundrum myself, for I know the usual response. But, I happen to think it is more valid than you think. Its related to the idea of, can God do the logically impossible? Can God create a square circle? If not, then God has limits. |
| Philosophos wrote: | That's absolutely not the case. The square-circle/rock stuff is a referrent that YOU are making. It has nothing to do with God.
I'll explain it in more detail if you like. But the upshot of it is this: logic relates the truth values of propositions to one another. It does not "limit" anything in reality. |
Actually, the logically impossible is also metaphysically impossible.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 4:27 PM
Location: Where Scum Are
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Actually, the logically impossible is also metaphysically impossible. |
Yes - in the sense that we may refer to metaphysically extant entities.
The root, however, lies with our meanings, not with metaphysics.
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 6:27 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| caseagainstfaith wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Missionary's right in this case, Rask. The "rock conundrum" is nonsense. |
I don't usually use the rock conundrum myself, for I know the usual response. But, I happen to think it is more valid than you think. Its related to the idea of, can God do the logically impossible? Can God create a square circle? If not, then God has limits. Where do these limits come from? And, if there are limits that not even God can cross, doesn't that violate arguments that God is necessary to set the limits? If there are limits to God, why call him God? |
Well, I can only speculate on this. But I am convinced that God created math, physics, natural laws and such. We simply discover them. I imagine that God cannot be limited to any boundary or measurement and thus theoretically is able to break the plane of every boundary He has set. Most like this would entail diminsions that we cannot fathom or comprehend.
Take a DNA strand. If God invented that, and of course if He is God He did, imagine that the entire universe as we know it is a single atom of a much larger complex molecule of genetic code in an infinite DNA strand and you get the picture I'm talking about new frontiers and dimensions. |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 6:27 AM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Zocrates wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Zocrates wrote: | | And how do you know everything about this god of yours, Missionary? How would someone with not as much knowledge as you gain such all-encompassing knowledge of this god of yours? |
There's only one way...to meet Him. He will contact you when you're ready. When He does? Remember to choose wisely. |
What is this vague "easy escape" answer you guys keep giving me? "He will contact you when you're ready" is the biggest escape clause known to man.......it implies that he has not contacted me because I'm "not ready". In other words, all the people that have not been contacted by god have something that THEY are not doing in order to hear from god.
I'm so sick of hearing this garbage of placing the blame on the non-believer because they have not heard from god. At this point it's highly likely that you're convincing yourself that he talks to you because: A) you can't provide evidence of his existence and B) you continue to blame non-believers rather than blame god for why no communication has taken place......seems very indicative of a mental fabrication on your part. |
Maybe I'm typing too fast or not paying attention. God calls all people to Himself continuously. But sometimes it takes years of prep work before a person is open to hear Him. When that person is ready God will reveal Himself in such a manner that there is no doubt. For me it took 30 years. However, the day I was saved? Right at that moment it's like the Lord flashed ny life before my eyes. Except what He showed me was all the times He had called me and I had said no or I ignored it.
Have you ever remotely had the "feeling", so to speak, deep down inside where you say to yourself, "I know that's the way but I don't want to go there right now"? and you talk yourself out of it? For different people have different questions and experiences. But that's one I've heard and similar to what i remember I did. |
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 4:27 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Have you ever remotely had the "feeling", so to speak, deep down inside where you say to yourself, "I know that's the way but I don't want to go there right now"? |
No.
_________________
"Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
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Gettin' In Tune
Forum Master
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2550
Local time: 3:27 PM
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| When you talk to god, it is called prayer. When god talks back to you, it is called a delusion. If you are hearing voices in your head, I would suggest that you seek help. |
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