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baddogma
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: Hell or no hell? |
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I have heard the arguments from both sides.
Does hell exist or not? Using scripture please make your case.
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hell or no hell? |
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| baddogma wrote: | I have heard the arguments from both sides.
Does hell exist or not? Using scripture please make your case. |
well generally the debate is over aniahlationism (the soul is destroyed, ceases to exist) and orthodox view (eternal judgment/torment/separation from God) thus the texts that have bearing must qualify the ultimate judgment of God as being everlasting or eternal.
| Quote: | | Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" - |
this text is surrounded by interpretive debate but it is clear that there is an eternal sin which necessitates an eternal sinner
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Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,and of instruction about washings,(1 )the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. |
Apparently the author of Hebrews considered eternal judgment a basic and assumed doctrine
| Quote: | Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
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To be fair I would not build my argument from this text simply because in the same context the author is using figurative language, however I think the authors illustration falls apart if there is no eternal fire
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Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. |
for sake of space I left out the entire context which begins in verse 14. this chapter is perhaps the strongest support for hell
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2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from(1 )the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, |
this ones pretty explicit
so there you go. anybody want to say the Bible doesn't teach there is a hell be my guest
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Moloth
...and two stealthed Rogues.
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Hell or no hell? |
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| romans120 wrote: | | so there you go. anybody want to say the Bible doesn't teach there is a hell be my guest |
*waits for the liberal, luvvy-duvvy, christians to show up*
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passrt2002
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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i have heard the the theroy that hell is actually a refrence to just dieing and after you die you just fall into a coma or something and when jebus comes back he judges you and then you get to go to the lake of fire if your "born again"
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After supper she got out her book and learned me about Moses and the Bulrushes, and I was in a sweat to find out all about him; but by and by she let it out that Moses had been dead a considerable long time; so then I didn't care no more about him, because I don't take no stock in dead people. Huck Fin |
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| passrt2002 wrote: | | i have heard the the theroy that hell is actually a refrence to just dieing and after you die you just fall into a coma or something and when jebus comes back he judges you and then you get to go to the lake of fire if your "born again" |
the dieing after you die bit refers to a belief called "soul sleep" and it really has nothing to do with believing in the existence of hell or not.
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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baddogma
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Get this shit
Thessalonians 1:8 KJB:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.<(PERIOD)
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thessalonians 1:8 NIV:
"the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.<(period)
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
By switching the period Jesus either shows up in a fiery ball to punish. OR he shows up to punish with fire those that do not believe.
Noooo...the bible isn't changing.....
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romans120
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | Get this shit
Thessalonians 1:8 KJB:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.<(PERIOD)
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thessalonians 1:8 NIV:
"the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.<(period)
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
By switching the period Jesus either shows up in a fiery ball to punish. OR he shows up to punish with fire those that do not believe.
Noooo...the bible isn't changing..... |
I guess I'm not seeing your point. Both texts are saying the same thing. The KJV is preserving proper English (something the KJV is known for doing) and placing the preposition at the beginning of a new sentence. The NIV is closer to the greek sentence structure because in the greek text the sentence begins in verse 3 and ends in verse 10. Both versions the prepositions must qualify the person "Lord" and not the location of Hell. in either case their is no change in the understanding of the text and even if their was the Greek would clear it up
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | anybody want to say the Bible doesn't teach there is a hell be my guest |
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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If you believe in god you get everlasting life. If you don't, you don't get everlasting life.
There's no room for hell. Eternal heaven or not eternal heaven are the only possibilities.
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Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
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You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
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Vyrian
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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No hell because God doesn't exist, so hell doesn't exist.
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baddogma
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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USING SCRIPTURE. ftw
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Vyrian
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | USING SCRIPTURE. ftw |
Eh I kind of figured why bother. Honestly though, nice topic and all for discussion but we need to ground it a bit. I'm sure in the bible you can find verses supporting there being a hell and not being a hell. It's one of the main themes of the bible and old testament. Condraction.
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Raskolnikov
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | Get this shit
Thessalonians 1:8 KJB:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.<(PERIOD)
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thessalonians 1:8 NIV:
"the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.<(period)
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
By switching the period Jesus either shows up in a fiery ball to punish. OR he shows up to punish with fire those that do not believe.
Noooo...the bible isn't changing..... |
I guess I'm not seeing your point. Both texts are saying the same thing. The KJV is preserving proper English (something the KJV is known for doing) and placing the preposition at the beginning of a new sentence. The NIV is closer to the greek sentence structure because in the greek text the sentence begins in verse 3 and ends in verse 10. Both versions the prepositions must qualify the person "Lord" and not the location of Hell. in either case their is no change in the understanding of the text and even if their was the Greek would clear it up |
Kind of off topic here, but what the hell!
I think this verse can also be used to support predestination. It says "He will punish those who do not know God" so that means even the bush-dude in Africa, who's never heard of Jesus or Christianity before, will be punished no matter what.
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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded faith."
-Thomas Jefferson |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Vyrian wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | USING SCRIPTURE. ftw |
Eh I kind of figured why bother. Honestly though, nice topic and all for discussion but we need to ground it a bit. I'm sure in the bible you can find verses supporting there being a hell and not being a hell. It's one of the main themes of the bible and old testament. Condraction. |
Of course. The bible is contradictory on almost every point. But that is the atheist's point in battling with the bible!
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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