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| Which is the better MMO? |
| Everquest |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| Everquest II |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| Final Fantasy XI |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| World of Warcraft |
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76% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Message |
lumpymunk
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Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | aye. DAoC fan, i presume? |
Not really, the game didn't look very good and some of the class mechanics were overpowered... there were too many expansions... etc...
But...
The structure of PvP in DaoC (RvR) was a lot more entertaining than the PvP in WoW, and Mythic actually promoted world pvp instead of beefing up the city guards so that shitty lowbies don't cry when Ironforge gets ass-raped.
Arena's isn't anything but a combo competition, it's completely predetermined based on the flawed rock/paper/scissors class imbalance in the game.
Battlegrounds are instanced, which only detracts from world pvp. That is why I say that WoW is a PvE MMO.
| Quote: | | I'm sure WoW will die one day... but not today and certainly not tomorrow. it has over 9 MILLION ACTIVE subscriptions... it is, by orders of magnitude, more popular than ANY MMO, EVER. |
WoW's PvE, pre-bc, was challenging and difficult. That is why only less than 1% of the guilds in the world were able to accomplish any of it.
...but WoW destroyed it's own cornerstone by dumbing down the PvE content. Simply compare the number of guilds that were downing Kel'thuzad pre-bc with the number of guilds that are downing Illidan now and working their way into Sunwell and you'll see the effects of their new policies. It was intentional on Blizzards behalf because players were complaining about not getting access to "the full game" while paying the same monthly fee as the top tiered raiders. Now, with impoverished PvE, and gimmicky PvP, WoW has nothing left to offer. The mainstream gamers (those that will direct the flow of the other 8.9 million subscribers) have gotten out, and will continue getting out. After that, the fickle masses will follow because the successful gamers will make the grass look greener where ever they go.
Even the TOP TOP TOP guilds in the world are disappointed and bored, read some of the criticisms written by the Elitist Jerks, Death'n'Taxes or the European guild Nihilum.-
So, while WoW might be able to boast big numbers of users, so can programs like AIM... and that is basically what WoW has become... an MMOIM.
Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Messenger
| Moloth wrote: | | Burning Crusade was great. all of the content was fun, challenging and epic-feeling. the new races, zones and quests were better than anything that came before them. |
Except most of what they offered was carbon copies of old content. The reason they knew they could do this is because of the way their player base cycles in and out, very quickly. Take Nagrand for one example, it's exactly the same as Stranglethorn Vale. Even recently, as a last ditch effort to spur the loss of subscribers they have removed all attunements to End game instances, and nurfed them, to pacify the shitty players. (wonder why they would do that if they're going so strong as a game?) The reason WoW is over is because Blizzard is now a company focused on maintaining that subscriber number instead of producing a quality game. They're shooting themselves in the foot.
Another recent gimmick they're doing is giving everyone a chance to participate in these PvP tournaments where you don't actually have to earn your gear. (which defeats the purpose of an RPG, where you level up and where your character improvements matters).
The Burning Crusade was more of the same, but on retard mode. More shitty factions to grind, more instanced PvP (which was a mistake to begin with). More reused graphic models, and a complete and utter betrayal and discarding of the Warcraft Lore.
WotLK will be no different, and Blizzard will have to go to more extreme lengths to maintain their subscribers... but soon they'll catch on.
The "9 million subscribers" is bullshit. It's Blizzards way of scaring the competition.
1) How many people do you know who have multiple accounts? I still know a handful, and I haven't played the game in over a year.
2) How many people do you know use WoW as basically a chat client.
MMOIM
Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Messenger
_________________
“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks |
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Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The "9 million subscribers" is bullshit. It's Blizzards way of scaring the competition.
1) How many people do you know who have multiple accounts? I still know a handful, and I haven't played the game in over a year.
2) How many people do you know use WoW as basically a chat client. |
can you prove that 9 million is bullshit? or are you just denying a fact that you happen to not like. every analyst, reporter and developer in the videogame world can verify the number... whats makes you think anyone would believe your baseless refutation over the verifiable numbers?
1. i know one person that has two accounts. out of about 20 people i know who play. i fail to see how that changes anything abou WoW mass appeal and overwhelming success.
2. none.
you look silly out there, on the shore, denying the tide as it comes in and soaks your clothes.
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joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
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Local time: 10:25 PM
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| lumpymunk wrote: | 2) How many people do you know use WoW as basically a chat client.
MMOIM
Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Messenger |
That's what Zwinky is for 
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Moloth
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| joshuas3521 wrote: | | lumpymunk wrote: | 2) How many people do you know use WoW as basically a chat client.
MMOIM
Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Messenger |
That's what Zwinky is for |
is that like x-fire?
_________________
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lumpymunk
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | can you prove that 9 million is bullshit? |
Nope, but what I CAN give you are reasonable objections that suggest the number is being exaggerated.
Can you prove the opposite? Nope, you're just going on blind faith like a fanboi, and believing whatever the company tells you.
Do you realize how the corporate game changes when stock holders enter the picture?
Investor Confidence is crucial, and that 9 -10 million number really builds confidence. Pay no attention to the fact that the curve you linked bends in exactly the same way I mentioned. A mass exodus of players looks like a flat line, and in Q3 and Q4 of 2006, you see that. Then when the advertising engine cranked itself back up for TBC they managed to crank the subscriptions back up... but look at the curve... it's still leveling out (reaching it's peak), and it's all downhill from there...it has already gone through several phases of brief declines, and it will begin down a more steadily decline during 09 and 2010... just as I said (after wotlk hits, the game is done). As these newer MMO's are coming out, WoW is going to go down the drain in numbers (as it's gone down the drain in quality)... i.e., WoW is Over.
Meanwhile Warhammer Online has over half a million people signed up for the Beta, and the Pre-Order has been #1 on Amazon for a month....
...yea I wonder which MMO is going to replace WoW.
It's inevitable Moloth, which is why you shouldn't suggest out of date games to people looking for a new MMO.
In my mind, suggesting to someone that they ought to check out WoW, is like telling someone they ought to check out a MUD... that's just how quickly things evolve now.
| Quote: | | or are you just denying a fact that you happen to not like. every analyst, reporter and developer in the video game world can verify the number... whats makes you think anyone would believe your baseless refutation over the verifiable numbers? |
Using absolutist jargon like "every analyst" and "denying a fact" that is only a "fact" because X company says so, only demonstrates your futile attempts to make your argument LOOK stronger than it actually is. My "refutation" wasn't a refutation... and I think the reasons I gave for remaining skeptical of those numbers are reasonable. It just looks like an attack to a fanboi, "how dare he mock the great MMO gawdz!!"
| Quote: | | 1. i know one person that has two accounts. out of about 20 people i know who play. i fail to see how that changes anything abouy WoW mass appeal and overwhelming success. |
We're not talking about it's mass appeal and it's success, we were talking about the numbers. try to stay on topic and you won't Fail to see how your own tangents are unrelated, because the tangents won't exist.
I know a handful of relatives and past guildies with more than one account, and two people with three accounts. These people use these multiple accounts for crafting utilities, while actually playing only 1 seriously. Blizzard would count that as 3, because some guy logs onto his GF's account or His little brothers old account who doesn't play anymore to make some bags or craft some gems, or disenchant some shit... or go mining... whatever it may be. He might just keep the accounts in case his guild ever needs to fill a specific raid spot and can't find the class balance... It happens like that a lot more often than obviously you've had exposure to. A lot goes in to grinding a 70 and working up professions/reps/etc.., and people would rather pay an extra 15 a month than start another toon on their own account and have to level it themselves. Purely a matter of convenience, but it causes the numbers to be inflated.
A good poll to run for "active accounts" would be something more along the lines of "any account that accumulates 20 hours of /played time per week." That number would probably filter most, if not all, of the alt accounts people only log on to briefly. But again... so long as stocks are involved there is no incentive for Blizzard to conduct a credible survey because big numbers look good to the stock holders.
You're not paying attention then, at all.
Walk into any major city and you'll see people just standing around... General chat and global chat are never silent, people are doing more talking than they are playing... which isn't a big deal... I mean it's a very social game... but you shouldn't be counted in the poll of an "active account" if you just log on to chat. They have no way of filtering these kinds of things out though.
| Quote: | | you look silly out there, on the shore, denying the tide as it comes in and soaks your clothes. |
terrible metaphor
_________________
“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks |
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EvilEggCracker
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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Warhammer Online isn't going to replace WoW - just like LOTRO didn't.
The gameplay in Warhammer Online is apparently rubbish and with WotLK coming out the number of people playing WoW will fly up. I know that I'm renewing my subscription when it comes out.
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Noggin
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1009
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Location: Columbus Ohio
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Lol, these MMO topics always get me to laughing. "My MMO's better than your MMO!" , "Your a fanboi!" ... etc etc.
WoW is awesome for what it is, I played it and didn't like it, but it's not my cup-o-tea. McDonalds is prolly the biggest hamburger chain, evident by the numbers; I don't like MikkyD's, but the kiddies like it. I like a little more depth and sophistication, /shrug some people don't care what they eat, it's a matter of taste. Play what you like, it is about entertaining yer self, isn't it? 
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Noggin wrote: | Lol, these MMO topics always get me to laughing. "My MMO's better than your MMO!" , "Your a fanboi!" ... etc etc.
WoW is awesome for what it is, I played it and didn't like it, but it's not my cup-o-tea. McDonalds is prolly the biggest hamburger chain, evident by the numbers; I don't like MikkyD's, but the kiddies like it. I like a little more depth and sophistication, /shrug some people don't care what they eat, it's a matter of taste. Play what you like, it is about entertaining yer self, isn't it?
-Noggin |
you're exactly right.
i don;t like Microsoft, i haven;t eaten at a McDonalds in almost a decade, i don;t drink coke, i don;t drive a Toyota and i don;t watch soccer and i'm not married...
but is it foolish of me to discount all of those things and claim them 'dead' because i, personally, don't like them or partake in them? yer darn right!!
thats my point! 
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lumpymunk
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| EvilEggCracker wrote: | | Warhammer Online isn't going to replace WoW - just like LOTRO didn't. |
LOTRO wasn't made by a company with decades of MMO experience.
Turbine Inc, was founded in 1994. They're a young company with a lot of lessons to learn.
Mark Jacobs has been building EA Mythic since 1984, and has multiple successful MMO's under his belt already. Throw in the endorsement of EA, and you're looking at revolutionary MMO.
| Quote: | | The gameplay in Warhammer Online is apparently rubbish |
Why do you say that?
| Quote: | | and with WotLK coming out the number of people playing WoW will fly up. I know that I'm renewing my subscription when it comes out. |
There are over half a million people signed up for the Warhammer Online Closed Beta, granted some of the people signed up have multiple accounts they've signed up with... (at least I'm willing to admit the numbers are inflated). WoTLK isn't going to push sales, just like TBC didn't give the company a major push in sales. You can see, as I've pointed out already in the chart Moloth linked (assuming it's even accurate), that the rate of growth is already nearly non-existant. Blizz is topping out, and will soon decline, in the summer of 09 when people realize WotLK is a steam pile of the same old dogshit.
Have you even ready anything about WotLK? Gnome Deathknights? You don't even have to level a deathknight, it starts at like lv 60. The WoW lore director is pretty furious about it... This is their grand solution for PvP balance too... Any class can unlock a DK. Screw trying to fix rock/paper/scissors, lets just offer everyone something that feels "epic" and "unique" when in reality we'll turn everyone into clones... and hey, it's another level cap increase... which makes all of the things you've done in TBC worthless. Grats guys. Oh, except they will be also recycling content, because not that many people got to play Naxrammas back when it took a little brain activity... so in WotLK you'll get another chance in a 25 man version. Rest assured it will be much easier, and dumbed down just like all of TBC, so don't get scared guys. They're also stealing ideas from Mythic, like seige weapons, because they know they won't be able to "beat em" so they'll "join em." No one does RvR like the inventors of RvR though...
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“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Pirates of the Burning Sea is currently updated and patching at home, by the way. it should be done by the time i get home... maybe for lunch.
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EvilEggCracker
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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People who have been playing the Beta have reported that Warhammer Online combat sucks ass. It's pretty widespread.
WotLK offers tons of new stuff. The new Deathknight class looks awesome and I don't see why Gnomes shouldn't be allowed. Metzen himself supports the idea of almost all races being allowed to become Deathknights - however even that hasn't been announced yet.
WoW is not dead.
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| lumpymunk wrote: | | EvilEggCracker wrote: | | Warhammer Online isn't going to replace WoW - just like LOTRO didn't. |
LOTRO wasn't made by a company with decades of MMO experience.
Turbine Inc, was founded in 1994. They're a young company with a lot of lessons to learn.
Mark Jacobs has been building EA Mythic since 1984, and has multiple successful MMO's under his belt already. Throw in the endorsement of EA, and you're looking at revolutionary MMO.
| Quote: | | The gameplay in Warhammer Online is apparently rubbish |
Why do you say that?
| Quote: | | and with WotLK coming out the number of people playing WoW will fly up. I know that I'm renewing my subscription when it comes out. |
There are over half a million people signed up for the Warhammer Online Closed Beta, granted some of the people signed up have multiple accounts they've signed up with... (at least I'm willing to admit the numbers are inflated). WoTLK isn't going to push sales, just like TBC didn't give the company a major push in sales. You can see, as I've pointed out already in the chart Moloth linked (assuming it's even accurate), that the rate of growth is already nearly non-existant. Blizz is topping out, and will soon decline, in the summer of 09 when people realize WotLK is a steam pile of the same old dogshit.
Have you even ready anything about WotLK? Gnome Deathknights? You don't even have to level a deathknight, it starts at like lv 60. The WoW lore director is pretty furious about it... This is their grand solution for PvP balance too... Any class can unlock a DK. Screw trying to fix rock/paper/scissors, lets just offer everyone something that feels "epic" and "unique" when in reality we'll turn everyone into clones... and hey, it's another level cap increase... which makes all of the things you've done in TBC worthless. Grats guys. Oh, except they will be also recycling content, because not that many people got to play Naxrammas back when it took a little brain activity... so in WotLK you'll get another chance in a 25 man version. Rest assured it will be much easier, and dumbed down just like all of TBC, so don't get scared guys. They're also stealing ideas from Mythic, like seige weapons, because they know they won't be able to "beat em" so they'll "join em." No one does RvR like the inventors of RvR though... |
lol... you've been taking clairvoyance classes from ShaSha, man?
OF COURSE WoW will decline one day. and so will LotRO and WHO and all the rest... but, to say that WoW is "dead", when it is orders of magnitude more popular than any other MMO, EVER.... well, thats just 1984-ish double-think. Up is down. black is white. success if failure.
YES, WOW IS DEAD. NO, THERE ARE NOT 9 MILLION SUBSCRIPTIONS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD PLAYING. NO, THEY DO NOT HAVE 200 SERVERS. NO, THEY DO NOT HAVE OVER HALF OF ALL MMO BUSINESS. WOW IS QUITE CLEARLY DEAD.
lol...
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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lumpymunk
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| EvilEggCracker wrote: | | People who have been playing the Beta have reported that Warhammer Online combat sucks ass. It's pretty widespread. |
I'm in a guild with 4 beta testers, and one of my friends from Nightmares Asylum (from WoW) I also talk with weekly about the beta... they are all very positive about the beta. Combat has also been changing quite a bit through each beta phase, and healing as well. What specifically "sucks ass" about the combat? Specifics are preferable, over vague bullshit you hear from other people and repeat.
| Quote: | | WotLK offers tons of new stuff. |
"New" like Nax 2.0? "New" like, more factions to grind? "New" like a world PvP area? "New" like another profession? "New"?
The "new" world PvP area is just a spin off of the shit available in Eastern Plaguelands (which no one ever participated in) and Hellfire Penninsula (which no one participated in) "Daily PvP" ...lol... It's basically Alterac Valley, without being instanced... lol... The reason WoW's world PvP never succeeded is because they don't offer any kind of rewards for it, and in fact punish you for it with Dishonorable kills (not sure if that is still in the game actually) and making things more difficult like beefing up guards to discourage city raids. Controlling objectives in a zone doesn't MEAN anything if it's not building to something like a city seige, no one obviously gives a fuck about some buff you get in an area...
...just because it comes in a pretty new package doesn't mean the contents are actually new. It's all repackaged hype... and as redundant as Nagrand questing.
Sounds like more of the SAME to me... nothing new about it.
| Quote: | | The new Deathknight class looks awesome and I don't see why Gnomes shouldn't be allowed. |
Because it breaks the lore, and it's a cheap way to balance PvP.
| Quote: | | Metzen himself supports the idea of almost all races being allowed to become Deathknights - however even that hasn't been announced yet. |
Of course the Devs support it, because they have millions of whining fans complaining about the exclusivity of content and they have share holders to please by boosting subscribers... Blizz is a whore company... and they do whatever to please as many people ase possible... shitting on the Lore, shitting on the game itself, dumbing it down... all for a few more bucks. The company has no integrity...
Keep telling yourself that.
_________________
“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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okay, lumpy.. we get it.. you don't like WoW...
here's a thought: don't play it.
i don;t care if you like a particular video game or not.. but i DO care when you make claims that are clearly in contradiction to reality.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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