| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 11:25 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
|
 Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Moloth wrote: |
personally, i agree. I FULLY appreciate the difference between what i LIKE and what takes an amount of SKILL. If i want a particular splash of color or colors, i'll paint it myself or get a 3 year old to finger paint it. in my opinion, true abstract, such as that above, doesn't really deserve my cash, ya know? but, on the other hand, a perfectly and expertly painted owl of fruit does not either.... i appreciate the amazing skill it takes to recreate a physical object like that... but.. ugh... why would you want a representation of a bowl of fruit? O_o
|
True, there's also the matter of having an interesting subject which matters with music and art. If something's boring, it's boring no matter how much ability was required. I'd equate a great artist painting a bowl of fruit to a concert pianist playing chopsticks or a brain surgeon doing vaccinations. Sure they can do it, but what a waste of talent. Gorgeous nude woman, interesting. An apple, not so much.
| Quote: |
personally, i like two different, just-off-center forms of art on that spectrum: fantastic things represented realistically, and mundane things represented fantastically. both of those give room, in my opinion, to express imagination, talent AND skill.
an example of the former:
and example of the latter:
|
The first shows up as an X, but absolute agree with Starry Nights. Very cool painting and also in my wallpaper/screensaver folder with all the APOD pictures.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
Last edited by BarkAtTheMoon on Mon May 05, 2008 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 11:25 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Moloth wrote: | | Also... Holst 'The Planets' = awesome. |
Word. If you like that you'd probably appreciate Pictures at an Exhibition, too. Are you familiar with it? "The Great Gate of Kiev" movement made for a booming company front when my high school band used it for field shows one year.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Local time: 1:25 AM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Also... Holst 'The Planets' = awesome. |
Word. If you like that you'd probably appreciate Pictures at an Exhibition, too. Are you familiar with it? "The Great Gate of Kiev" movement made for a booming company front when my high school band used it for field shows one year. |
So much blockbuster movie movie can to some extent be traced back to "Mars, The Bringer of War."
My 2 favorite movements are the slow ones, Saturn and Neptune.
From Pictures at an Exhibition, I prefer the moevemnts Tuileries and Bydlo.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 11:25 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kmisho wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
I take it more as X type music ain't music because it takes no ability or talent to produce it |
Here's where I think you are just wrong. Do you know enough about it to even say?
|
Yes I do, but it's certainly just my opinion.
I know what it takes to play a musical instrument at a high level, and I know when someone has a great voice, and I know the creativity it takes to write original music and lyrics. I can usually pick out mistakes in live performances as well, drives me nuts when I see my son's middle school band concerts because I can pick out when people miss notes, are out of tune, squeek, etc, especially with the sixth grade group. I also appreciate when bands, some punk bands for example, acknowledge that they can't sing particularly well or play anything more than 3 chords, but they do it with clever or funny lyrics. I even appreciate the musical ability of some of that hick shit HBA likes to listen to.  For anyone who's ever even been in a high school band, it's obvious how much talent it takes to create and play a symphony.
I have trouble respecting someone who has a DJ remix someone else's music (some of the remixing work I do have respect for), doesn't play their own instruments, and makes up rhymes with words bludgeoned in with a hammer to fit the rhyme about fucking ho's in da club. And I only borderline respect the American Idol type pop music that, while the person may have a decent voice, has other people manufacture their career, use other people's creative work (music & lyrics), and doesn't play their own instruments.
| Quote: | | Quote: | ie. 95% of rap, whereas classical certainly takes a great deal of creativity and talent. Besides, the flow of the music of any number of genres with instrumental songs most certainly can tell a story, moods, emotions, etc. without any lyrics (recently picked up versions of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Expedition and Holst's The Planets for my iPod which both vividly describe physical things with music).
|
But the moods and emotions you attach to certain aural combinations is largely cultural. You've learned it.
|
Maybe, although I don't need to know the details of the movements of the above symphonies to know the feel of it even though I do, e.g. Mars: The Bringer of War sounds like something out of an action movie. To me, the moods and emotions especially are pretty obvious in a lot of music.
| Quote: |
I for one consider the amateur esthetic central to all pop music since the birth of rock. The whole idea is that anybody can do it.
This also gets back into the issue of exactly how much talent and skill matter in art, something which we'd probably also disagree about. |
I agree that it's all a matter of opinion. I've played a musical instrument and sang in a chorus so I know the amount of work that goes into it. Sure anybody can do it, but only a select elite can do it well. I have friends that play in rock bands, playing at local bars & bartending to make ends meet, having missed their real chance at getting signed (and they're good, too), but still playing anyway. That's the cool thing about rock bands, very few have success handed to them. They make it by killing live at local clubs and bars.
The splattered paint Pollock painting above reminds me of Julianne Moore's character in The Big Lebowski riding the zipline naked and flailing a couple paint brushes as she passes the canvas. That, to me, shows little talent or artistic merit.
The one you just posted above is cool as shit.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Local time: 1:25 AM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Maybe, although I don't need to know the details of the movements of the above symphonies to know the feel of it even though I do, e.g. Mars: The Bringer of War sounds like something out of an action movie. To me, the moods and emotions especially are pretty obvious in a lot of music.
|
Do you see my point, though? Mars has historical elements like marching drum effects and the horns blurting out the call to battle. Without knowledge of those things, where would the effect be? Even the "ominousness" of the quiet and building repetition is culturally fixed.
| Quote: | | I've played a musical instrument and sang in a chorus so I know the amount of work that goes into it. Sure anybody can do it, but only a select elite can do it well. |
You desire an obvious revelation of skill. Understandable. But I would still argue that the skill of the performer being obvious to the listener is not necessary. I play the pipe organ, which I often joke is like being a trained monkey. How much music can you make all by yourself type of thing.
But I still think there is some great music out there that's not skill-driven. Overt skill is just a particular aspect that may or may not be relevant.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChrissyFos
Lobal Dominatrix
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 5289
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: Here, There and Everywhere
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
_________________
This space is reserved for inarticulate meat puppets who have no true perspective outside the refuge of quotation marks.
Reverend Mother
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4637
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
By this logic, we should be able to sell individual snowflakes at a high price because they are near impossible to duplicate. |
Strawman meet kmisho. Kmisho you know strawman... Strawman you are so silly. Strawman you shouldn't have that belief. Infact strawman you forgot about the fact that snow is quite abundant if you have some there's loads of other snow.
Thusly in my opinion I'm still standing. That stupid strawman though deserved what he got.
| Quote: | | Have a heart. I at least allowed that your dog might be equally capable. |
haha. You are still very wrong. My dog is far more capable then these abstract artists. Infact if moloth gets back to us and tells us that my picture of horseshit IS art. My dog makes lots of BIG smelly ART everyday.
| Quote: | You assume lack of skill...
Who painted these? |
again being popular doesnt imply skill. Ogrish is pretty popular. There must be many people who see art in those pictures... Assuming moloth comes back to say ogrish is art.
Lets look at the art and I'll critique those.
Can I replicate that with any capability? certainly the fuck not.
Does it actually have a valid subject depicting something? You betcha.
Can I replicate with any capability? I would say yes. I then look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting) and the painting is over 11 feet by 25feet.
Ya I certainly couldn't replicate it.
Does it actually depict something?
Then consider... 1930s is a time when you wouldnt dare say "breast or thigh" when talking about say chicken parts. You had to say dark meat or light meat. The world was so very censored. Far far worse then what George Carlin and Howard Stern fought against.
So depicting actual near to photo realistic gore would be very very bad. The sight of blood is even illegal today in many countries... such as germany. No picture or game or anything can depict blood. So hence the black and white.
Then depicting the death and gore of a bombed out city where bodies are mangled and even livestock are going nuts... I think this is the most realistic picasso could do given the time period and having the audience of a WORLDS FAIR. Without stepping on any toes. Abstract is then used in a very very valid proper way.
Contrast this where a comic can go on stage and say the most hateful racist things and get laughs from it...
Once you go hispanic.... your parents will panic.
There is no valid use of abstract for this method.
I disagree with saying you shouldnt post abstract art. IF that pothead even really said that or not I dunno.
It remains though that the pic is above satisfactory obviously... would I perserve it? Certainly.
| Quote: | This is not ciriticizing art. It's an infantile transparent amateurish polemic. I hope it gave you a big vermillion boner because that's all it was good for.
I do not have a problem with people judging art, but that's not what you're doing...and you know it. |
On the contrary. I always post lots of extra comments in my posts. I criticised and judged the art and then I commented on the artist. Which is also a valid method because we can critique Bloodrayne and then we can comment on Uwe Boll. Personally I liked both bloodrayne movies... but many people dislike uwe boll.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4637
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | Perhaps I have a narrow definition of art, but I don't consider abstract art a form of art, especially pure abstract art. I can find something beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, but this does not make it art. Art needs to communicate and depict a degree of reality. Therefore, I don't think art is solely identified in the eye of the beholder. It should have some minimum standards, not just splashing colors around on a piece of canvas, like Jack the Dripper
This is not art, but a display of colors
 |
The day I vomit something up and it looks as bad as that... I might just commit suicide.
Damn that's a shitty accident of paint.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4637
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Moloth wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Perhaps I have a narrow definition of art, but I don't consider abstract art a form of art, especially pure abstract art. I can find something beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, but this does not make it art. Art needs to communicate and depict a degree of reality. Therefore, I don't think art is solely identified in the eye of the beholder. It should have some minimum standards, not just splashing colors around on a piece of canvas, like Jack the Dripper |
I understand that, which is why I mentioned "illusionary art" as a more accurate name for realism. Someone like Pollock thought that making illusions on canvas was inherently a lie.
And I see no difference between looking at a Pollock (or any abstraction) and listening to a wordless piece of music. Communication is possible despite the lack of realistic depiction. The only thing you need to acknowledge is that if you are not sensitive to the nuances of expression possible with "visual music" there are those who are. I'm very sensitive to it both by nature and training. |
heh... i like that. "classical or instrumental music ain't music because it ain't got no words in it!!!" sounds like "abstract art ain't art because it ain't a picture of sumthin real!!" |
what the fuck moloth. Reply to my post. I'm waiting for you to tell me if ogrish and horseshit is art...
Again the factors I have applied take effect.
Can I replicate classical or instrumental music? NO???
| Quote: | | I take it more as X type music ain't music because it takes no ability or talent to produce it, ie. 95% of rap, whereas classical certainly takes a great deal of creativity and talent. |
To be fair even much rap takes skill to do. However when you can pull an 8-mile and do it yourself... Yep.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4582
Local time: 11:25 AM
Location: Wilmington, DE
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kmisho wrote: | | Quote: | Maybe, although I don't need to know the details of the movements of the above symphonies to know the feel of it even though I do, e.g. Mars: The Bringer of War sounds like something out of an action movie. To me, the moods and emotions especially are pretty obvious in a lot of music.
|
Do you see my point, though? Mars has historical elements like marching drum effects and the horns blurting out the call to battle. Without knowledge of those things, where would the effect be? Even the "ominousness" of the quiet and building repetition is culturally fixed.
|
It's hard to be aware of whether that's learned or not. Certainly, listening to a great buildup in music like that can get the adrenaline flowing, and I'm not sure it wouldn't still even if you've never heard music before (I'm picturing 1812 Overture live with the cannons here). I would think it's possible for a even person with little musical knowledge to have a distinct, visceral reaction to certain musical performances that would follow what the composer was going for. Guess there's no easy way to really test that.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I've played a musical instrument and sang in a chorus so I know the amount of work that goes into it. Sure anybody can do it, but only a select elite can do it well. |
You desire an obvious revelation of skill. Understandable. But I would still argue that the skill of the performer being obvious to the listener is not necessary. I play the pipe organ, which I often joke is like being a trained monkey. How much music can you make all by yourself type of thing.
But I still think there is some great music out there that's not skill-driven. Overt skill is just a particular aspect that may or may not be relevant. |
Sure, it's all a matter of opinion, and a lot of times it could just be the circumstance of hearing the song. *ahem* I have the theme song from The Greatest American Hero on my iPod. It's pretty cheesy, out-of-date 80's synth music with a Truck Driver's Gear Change, but damn if listening to it and remembering the show (plus the George Costanza answering machine message) doesn't put a smile on my face.
Out of curiosity, what are some of the music you're thinking of here?
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4637
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Here's where I think you are just wrong. Do you know enough about it to even say? |
hahahaah kmisho you make me laugh. Again something christians say constantly.
| Quote: | | But the moods and emotions you attach to certain aural combinations is largely cultural. You've learned it. |
actually no. I rememeber reading a study done by catholic missionaires who discovered that emotion and art forms are nearly universal irregardless to the language you speak and the culture you live in. Though creation of art forms often depict what your culture is experiencing at the time. For example afghani art forms at the moment are very anti-russion and depict many russian things. Including ak-47s and such.
| Quote: | | I for one consider the amateur esthetic central to all pop music since the birth of rock. The whole idea is that anybody can do it. |
You clearly haven't heard about American Idol or "Insert Nation here" Idol. Those with skill move on. Those without skill are clearly demonstrated and insulted quite publically.
| Quote: | | There is one fastinating artist that manages to combine photo-realism, abstraction and pop-art like patterning into a single entity. Chuck Close. Up close you see clashing circles of color inserted into regular squares and rectangles. From a distance it looks like a photo. It gives the amazing impression of being both haphazard and painstaking: |
Again... CAN I RECREATE THIS??? Certainly not.
Does it depict something? Yes.
Rating? Satisfactory.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amberli
Royal Citizen
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 387
Local time: 8:25 AM
Location: San Bernardino, CA
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I like these a lot, not sure what category they are other than Renn. I love it when they show them on the History and Discovery channel shows.
Brom
Boris Vallejo
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: D-brane
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
good enuff for a repeat... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shiranu
Tiki Masta Dude
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 2510
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
All done by me, while bored at school. I generally do tribal/abstract, so the second two are a leap for me.
VANS (tempted to redo this one and send it in, would love to see this on a T-Shirt.
My Evil Skull (Did this a year ago, so im a bit better now)
What yall think?
_________________
"We dont know if we each have a destiny, or if we all are just floatin round accidental like on a breeze... but I think maybe its both...maybe both is happening at the same time." - Forrest Gump
"And when our children fight our wars, while we sit back just keeping score, Were teaching murder not understanding now...
We're setting the fires to light the way, We're burning it all to begin again, With hope in our hearts and bricks in our hands, We sing for change." - Rise Against |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shiranu
Tiki Masta Dude
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 2510
Local time: 10:25 AM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Um... How do you rescale pictures already online? It took me wayyyyy to damn to upload as it is... ^.^
_________________
"We dont know if we each have a destiny, or if we all are just floatin round accidental like on a breeze... but I think maybe its both...maybe both is happening at the same time." - Forrest Gump
"And when our children fight our wars, while we sit back just keeping score, Were teaching murder not understanding now...
We're setting the fires to light the way, We're burning it all to begin again, With hope in our hearts and bricks in our hands, We sing for change." - Rise Against |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
